Putting 4th F# raise on LKV...

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 9 Dec 2005 12:31 pm

In doing some thread-searching, I thought this was an interesting suggestion by Per in Sweden. This would free up the C pedal for something you'd like but can't make practical on the vertical, because as b0b has repeatedly said -- and I agree, that darn vertical is really tough to use by itself unless you're using it with the A & B pedals. Anyone else done this? How about why it's not such a hot idea?

Al[This message was edited by Al Terhune on 09 December 2005 at 12:42 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Dec 2005 12:46 pm

I have it and I use it a lot, but I don't recommend it. I think that the 5th string B lower to A# is a much better choice for LKV. It's more versatile. I'm just unwilling to retrain my reflexes after 27 years of playing this way.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 9 Dec 2005 1:47 pm

It all depends on how you use the C pedal. I would never eliminate or replace the C pedal on any of my guitars. I use B+C a LOT. Some of my favorite uptempo single string and double-stop patterns are pretty easy for me to pull off with B+C but were very difficult (or impossible) when I tried it with A+B and an E to F# knee lever.

I'll post soundbytes if you're interested in hearing what I'm talking about with B+C -- and try to do at tempo with a knee lever -- either a vertical or L or R lever. It's possible that one could pull it off with a lever, but I couldn't.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Dec 2005 3:16 pm

I find Per's ideas very interesting. It may be because there is 1 steeler to every million sq. miles in Northern Europe.

Today's solution for me (you can plan a lot when you're between psg's) is to split the C pedal into C#'s on pedal 1; F#'s on pedal 0 to, left of 1; and A's on P2, leaving P3 opening for Ed Packard's X pedal or PF's P4.

I agree with b0b; keep the Bb out of the way.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Dec 2005 4:05 pm

I'm with Larry on this one. Some of the best C-pedal stuff is the very fast stuff, and it's really difficult to do these fast moves without a "C" floor pedal.

"Feets are faster than knees."

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Dec 2005 4:58 pm

I agree that C on the floor is faster. My recording of Round the Horn is pretty tame by West Coast standards, but it would have been nearly impossible without the C pedal on the floor. I don't perform it anymore.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 9 Dec 2005 7:30 pm

Okay, guys -- I'm in full trust of your cumulative years of PSI (pedal steel intelligence).

Al

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 9 Dec 2005 8:49 pm

So, Charlie . . .
How do you get B+C pedal -- two feet?!?!?
Not a tenable solution in my book. The C pedal is there for a reason. You have F#'s on 1 and 7 and you can certainly use them as roots for a 2m chord, but the transition from a IMaj to a iim chord by raising the B to C#, E to F#, and G# to A all together is a staple of the E9 tuning. The pedal slur for the I to ii note is an important feature. Even if you don't dig the Hal Rugg or Paul Franklin licks that abound for the B+C pedals, it just makes musical sense.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 10 Dec 2005 3:34 am

B+C = P1+P2+Per's LKV [LKR E->F# raise on mine. I omitted that from the scheme.]
That would allow slurs on E to F#, B to C#, or G# to A, or any combination, in theory.
The intention is to 'stage' the raises independently, to delay the B to C# raise last in resolving the A chord.

It's a thought experiment, subject to verification on something more substantial than a virtual guitar.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Dec 2005 7:36 am

I was just responding to this

Today's solution for me (you can plan a lot when you're between psg's) is to split the C pedal into C#'s on pedal 1; F#'s on pedal 0 to, left of 1; and A's on P2, leaving P3 opening for Ed Packard's X pedal or PF's P4.

The minuses far outweigh the pluses in my book -- but it's your virtual guitar.

Having that E to F# on a lever prevents some really cool uptempo licks -- that's all I'm saying.

Also, placing E to D# on LKL with an Emmons config is very cumbersome. Think about using E to D# plus B to get an open B7 chord (a very common way to get a Dom7 chord for most players). It's much easier to combine with the standard Emmons LKR or a right knee lever.

Experimentation is great, but things that look good on paper often fall short in practice -- believe me -- I speak from experience. Just depends on whether you prefer to spend more time working on top or underneath the guitar.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 10 Dec 2005 7:44 am

Thanks Larry; I appreciate getting these warnings. They don't always prevent experimentation, but forewarned....

And it's conceptually a Day setup, as Ed Packard's PX goes to the right of P2--thus the E lower on LKL. I've tried it on the Starter, and it's more comfortable for me.

The F raise doesn't seem necessary, as PA and E->D# produced the same change as E->F + PC, so I'm losing the C pedal. PB + PX has a lot of interesting 13th chords.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 10 December 2005 at 12:25 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 10 Dec 2005 12:50 pm

This fro Bob, ca. 2002 (found while looking up MSA Classics):
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Like Moon, I have been using an E to F# knee lever for a long time. I raise both E's with it.... If you raise the E to F# with one lever and lower it to D# with another, you have the F.

Currently I have the E to F# on the left vertical, and E to D# on RKL.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a hot idea, Al, and apparently it's been kicked around more than once.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 10 Dec 2005 2:31 pm

I tried the E to F# raise and didn't like it.
I use the raise to F,along with my A pedal,a lot and also use the raise to F to get a nice 7th three frets up. It also makes it hard to get the F raise perfect,if you are going to F#. This is really hard for me if it is a fast song.

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 10 Dec 2005 3:34 pm

Great thread. There is much to learn from experience here.
I am also planning a copedent for a new guitar, S10 4&5 possibly. I use the “C” pedal a lot, and also F# to G on 1&7 (with pedals down), and G# to F# on 6 frequently.

I like F# to G, strings 1 & 7, for LKV.
I thought about a second LKL with E to F# on strings 4 & 8, just for an experiment, but I realize now that I need the B to A# (5&10) somewhere. Since I have not installed a LKV yet, and have never learned it, I find now that I painted myself into a corner. I've been using the "B" pedal with E to F raise one fret back to accomplish this function, but I am learning now that there are many other combinations using the B to A# lower that are possible, and can't get those voicings with the method I'm using. In short, I’ve learned that b0b has good advice here regarding the B to A# lower. He’s right, it’s more useful.

Mike
[This message was edited by Michael Barone on 10 December 2005 at 03:38 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 10 Dec 2005 4:16 pm

Hmmm well I've been studying these posts and my proposed copedant and am chasing my tail as well. I think I'll stick to Ed P.'s chart--looking at an S12 seriously--and go with something that's worked out.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Dec 2005 6:02 pm

I no longer raise both E's to F# on LKV. I only raise the high E. I also don't bother to tune the split anymore. Keeping it simple.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 10 Dec 2005 9:29 pm

I moved my B's lowered from the vertical to my RKL. I like to get a two chord in the open position by lowering the B's.I felt like I almost had to lift the guitar with my left knee. It worked good as long as I had A & B down to get a minor. But to move straight up with my left knee and not be on the pedals was very awkward to me.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Dec 2005 10:17 pm

When I need to do that, I move my foot off the pedals and push up from my toes on the floor.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 11 Dec 2005 4:03 am

Whether B+C or A+B with LKV is faster or not will very much depend on how your LKV is set up.

On my old AVM S10, it just happened to be 100% perfectly positioned for me, and being able to effortlessly kick in that F# without moving my foot sideways really speeded up my playing – and was great for slower parts as well. Just the right action, just the right resistance, in just the right place. Pure luck, I guess!

On my present Legrande, the LKV is much harder to reach and also harder to use – i still haven't got it anywhere near the way I want it, and I may end up building a new lever for it.

So, as usual, your mileage may vary. Anyway, it's worth a try!

------------------
´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Peavey Nashville 1000

[This message was edited by Per Berner on 11 December 2005 at 04:05 AM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 11 Dec 2005 4:52 am

I used to have an extra knee lever to raise my 4th string to F#. This in addition to the C pedal, not instead of it. I wound up taking it off.

I have my F# to G (natural) on the vertical so I can use it with the pedals down to get an A7 chord.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Dec 2005 12:14 pm

About a month ago, I saw Per's post and took the C-lever off my BMI S-12 (4+5) and added just the string 4 E-to-F# change to LKV. I really like having that change independent of the string 5 B-to-C# change - my legs are real long, so I can use it not only with A+B down, but also pedals up or either A or B. Together, these permutations produce lots of nice voicings.

Another effect I like is to use this LKV with LKL (F-lever) - with this BMI, I can get to them both concurrently. I like this for high-string effects. For example, using the A+F 1st inversion (strings 86543) as the I, engaging LKV gives the sus4, then changing the grip to 7654 or gives IV with an added 2 - then engaging the X-lever (B-to-Bb on string 5, set up on RKL) gives a nice dominant 7th V change with the b7 on top. Now releasing LKV and X together and changing the grip back to 8654 gets back to I maj, or if one desires I maj7, just release LKV. I'm not saying that it's superior to other ways of doing this type of change, but it's different from others I use, and I like the glassy sound.

I agree with what has been said - it does seem awkward to do faster licks like this. It's tough to coordinate everything to hit at the same time quickly - it may come in time, but right now, it's limited. But I like this change for slower stuff.

I will no doubt add pedals to this guitar - there are only 4 right now - in which case I may put the C-pedal back on. But I made a specific tradeoff so I could add another B6 pedal change. I really had to do this to get even a bare minimalist B6 setup - 2 changes on pedals and 1 on a lever. But I expect even if I put the C pedal back on, I'll leave this change on LKV. I prefer the X-lever on LKR or RKL, depending on where I put the E-to-Eb lever. I use X and E together a lot, and I set them up for contrary knee motion. This whole configuration works well for the band I'm working with right now, which is more roots-Americana-blues-folk-rock - it's definitely not a "fast-licks" band.

I do agree with Mike, the F#-to-G change is very useful for me - I have it on my other universal, but it's missing on this one. Maybe I need another lever. I think that change would work for me on an offset 2nd standard knee lever.

This BMI is pretty much an experimental guitar for me right now. I've changed it around probably 6 times in the last few months I've had it. Let me also say that I am trying to find my own voice on steel. My setup is pretty standard, but I like having a unique change or two. I use the Z-lever on my S-10, and it has some nice music in it. It doesn't bother me if I can't copy every top-40 country lick - that's not what I'm going for. I also don't mind trying new things - I haven't been playing so long that I'm completely ingrained in any one way to do things.