Make a Bud sound like an old Bigsby or Fender

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 30 Nov 2005 9:00 pm

Any ideas on how to get one or both necks of a Sho Bud Professional to sound more like the old Fenders and Bigsbys etc on west coast swing & Hank etc? There are so many factors it's hard to know where to start. But for sure you couldn't just put in old Fender and Bigsby pickups because they were from totally different instruments. Wouldn't the best way be to get some kind of sound processing? If so, what?

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"Elmore James kept playing the same licks over and over, but I get the feeling he meant it." Frank Zappa

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Nov 2005 9:20 pm

One thing that's worked successfully on a Carter is to have the pickup rewoundd to around 9-9.5k. Fender pickups used MUCH lower impedance than "modern" steel pickups, and it makes a dramatic difference in tone.

That's where I'd start - either sending Jerry Wallace your pickup for a rewind to Fender specs or having one custom made. There are other diferences, to be sure - but getting the pickup dialed in is critical.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 30 Nov 2005 11:10 pm

When Danny Shields, the Wizard, was with us. He could wind anything, including Bigsby pickups. Here's a couple photos of my Professional:

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 1 Dec 2005 7:00 am

Jim,
Pardon my ignorance, but who is Jerry Wallace and how would I find him?

I'm hoping I could get this tone with some kind of add on. If you can make a steel sound like a dobro, and if you can give a steel a fuzz tone, I'm thinking some pedals would give a better result without having to alter my Bud, and without sacrificing the Bud tone.

What rig did Moon play?

Brian Creamer · Post by **Brian Creamer** » 1 Dec 2005 7:27 am

www.jerrywallacemusic.com

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 1 Dec 2005 8:25 am

It doesn't matter how you wind any pickups, the tone is NOT in the pickup. You need the whole Bigsby to get that tone.

Most of the "old Fender tone" was the fact that they only had 9000 ohms of impedance. Your professional won't sound like a fender, but similar (maybe)with light pickups.

The Bigsby only has 1900 (ninteen hundred)ohms but is still a fat pickup,(#38 wire) see, inpedence isn't everything. Ask Bill Lawrance, he will conferm this.
I have put bigsby pickups on Sho-Buds for experments, and found that the Bigsby tone was not in the pickup at all. As a matter of fact, it ruined the tone of the Sho-Bud.
Remember this, Walter Hains had Sho-Bud pickups on his Bigsby when he cut many Nashville hits, such as "We Could" and many other Jimmy Dickins sessions. The Bigsby tone was still there with the Sho-Bud pickups. But the feedback problem was gone.
Most Bigsby owners today know about the microphonic problems with those original cast iron pickups.
However, these guitars DO sound great, regardless of what pickup is installed on them.

Bobbe
[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 01 December 2005 at 08:41 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 1 Dec 2005 9:11 am

Bobbe is correct, but the Bigsby's are an anomaly in the use of #38 wire and odd impedance. Bill Lawrence is a genius when it comes to combining DC resistance, wire, turns, "Q", eddy currents and all else that goes into pickup design - but I was trying to keep it simple, based on what's already been proven pretty successful - lower the DC resistance using pretty much standard wire to around 9.5k ohms and you get "close" to a Fender sound. There is no pedal that will do it. Some folks suggest using graphic equalizers, but they just suck the life out of the tone and don't get even close.

If you want to sound like a Fender, it's either pickup redesign - or buy a Fender.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 1 Dec 2005 10:57 am

Chas,
Are those the original pickups?

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 1 Dec 2005 11:22 am

Bobbe has me convinced (big surprise).

I didn't know the details he gave, but I know that pick ups are only part of tone. Even in a regular guitar, you can't make one sound like the other just by putting the same pickups in each one. That's even more true with a steel because there is just so much more to the instrument that effects tone. If tone was all pickup, you could put PAFs in Tiny Moore's Bigsby mando and it would sound like a Paul.

I know more about old cars than I do about steels, so I was thinking that you couldn't make a big heavy 1960s GM wagon accelerate like a 'vette by putting a 283 in it. A 283 is a high rev, low torque engine--just right for a light car. For a heavy car, you'd get more acceleration from a low rev, high torque engine like a hemi. So by the same principle, I was thinking that trying to make a Bud sound like Vance Terry's Bigsby by putting Bigsby PUs in it would really, uh, PU.

So that's why I'm thinking that there must be some combination of the modern electronics you young guys and experts use that would simulate that 40s & 50s tone. (I don't know any of the pedals or processers. I go strait to the amp.)

dh

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 1 Dec 2005 12:32 pm

I've had some very interesting results with a L.R. Baggs Para Acoustic D.I.. I bought it to use on my old National archtop acoustic that I had a piezo bridge installed on. One day I plugged an electric, my Dano Hipshot guitar, into it, just to see what would happen. I was very surprised at the great tones I was able to get and manipulate. You might try something like that. I find it interesting that a device made for amplifying acoustic/piezo pickups could be so effective at tone-shaping an electric guitar. I haven't tried it on my Shobud though. It sounds just great by itself! http://www.zzounds.com/item--LRBPARADI

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 1 Dec 2005 12:52 pm

Darryl, the bridge position, on each neck, is a Bigsby copy that Danny wound, the other pickups are Lawrence 705's and I have a blend knob to blend the 705 into the Bigsby copy. This is the best sounding Sho-Bud in the world, if you don't mind my saying so....

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 1 Dec 2005 1:05 pm

Josh,
This is the kind of experimentation that I suspect is going to get results. If you want instrument A to sound like instrument B, you're probably going to be better off by not using anything from instrument B.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 1 Dec 2005 1:11 pm

Man, this is all new to me. Is there someplace I can find out more about multiple pickups on a neck? I'd like to see you do a whole thread on your rig. Anything more you want to say about it, I'm all ears. I'm all thumbs too, but that's another story.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 1 Dec 2005 3:01 pm

The plus side is the 2nd pickup makes a "fuller" sound, the minus side is it gets in the way when you're playing above the 15th fret.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 1 Dec 2005 4:35 pm

Do people really play that high? As a not-yet intermediate player, I don't really know. I suppose Speedy West played there. He played everywhere. In fact, my seventh wife..., oh never mind.

Personally, I'd be the last guy to do this on an all-original instrument that needs no repairs, but I'd be the first to do it on a beater or parts guitar etc. I've put banjos together and solid body guitars together that way. It seems to me that with extra PUs like this plus a lot of other sound processing, you could keep the Bud tone but get an approximation of a Fender/Bigsby tone all on the same instrument.
What do other players say when they see this?

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 1 Dec 2005 5:18 pm

7th wife? Say WHAT?

'xcuse plez. Tho't you were talkin' about me.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 1 Dec 2005 5:20 pm

Ray,
Did Speedy gut up to Portland too?

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 1 Dec 2005 7:46 pm

Darryl.. Talks to Jerry Wallace and tell him what you want.. You can get MUCH closer to the tone you want with a lightly wound pickup.. not exact, like our good friend Bobbe stated, but closer..

I was just told a story about Ralph Mooney. I asked WHY his Sho Bud sounded to my ears just like his old Fender on recordings.. I was told thst he had the Bud pickups wound to Fender specs and had them moved slightly forward to get a Fender like sound.. I DO NOT know if this is true, this is what i was told..

I have been told by many that my Carter sounds close to an old Fender.. I have a coil Tap Wallace Truetone and one position is wound to Fender Specs... The sound is not exact, but is close enough that I am selling my 1964 Fender pedals steel..

also try using a Fender tube amp, and you'll get MORE of the vintage tone you seek.. I promise...bob

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 1 Dec 2005 7:49 pm

My "Fender" coil is wound to 8 K.....it gets close with a mica body.. IMHO a wood body might even get you a little closer...TALK to Jerry Wallace... he KNOWS the tone you seek and I am VERY happy with what he did for me when I sought the same tone you do... bob

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 1 Dec 2005 8:37 pm

Bob,
What other mods would you consider for making a Bud sound more like a Bigsby or Fender?

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 1 Dec 2005 8:47 pm

Darryl........ You are overlooking a cool feature on your Professional, The pickup tap switches on both necks. These make your pickups 9 or 10 k (roughly half of what they were. Lots closer to the sound of a fender pickup. Of course a Sho~Bud will still have that "Sound"- thats why some folks dig them. If the taps arent twangy enough, try turning on both necks at the same time with or withuot the taps. There alot of different sounds on an old Professional, You just have to know how to get em.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 1 Dec 2005 9:01 pm

Darryl........ I was just looking at the pics of your Professional and it appears that the mini toggle for the E9 neck is missing. Get that set up correctly and you may be pleasantly suprised with the tonal options you have.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 1 Dec 2005 9:14 pm

Agin - what Bob and Mark both said. The recording I heard of Bob's was amazing.

But Bob - HOW could you sell your FENDER?

The horror. The shame. Find it a good home or else!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Dec 2005 9:45 pm

If I want to get close to that sound, I'd find someone who has one and record myself playing it through my amp. Then I'd sit down with my my own guitar, thru a Pod plugged into my amp, and the recording. I'd push buttons and twist knobs until I got as close as possible.

Because face it, you're not going to get the exact sound of a Bigsby or Fender unless you're playing a Bigsby or a Fender. In my opinion, changing pickups won't get you any closer than altering the tone with modern electronics. Using a Pod XT or a Genesis 3 to emulate the older guitar doesn't damage your axe. You keep your existing sound, and add a more vintage sound to your bag of tricks.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by b0b on 01 December 2005 at 09:46 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 1 Dec 2005 9:52 pm

"In my opinion, changing pickups won't get you any closer than altering the tone with modern electronics."

That would be true if line 6 or someone came up with a patch for the 400 tone - like they do in their Variax line, which does a great job of emulating dozens of guitars.

But the patch doesn't exist, or at least nobody has demonstrated an example of it yet. When I had my MSA I twisted POD knobs all over the place and couldn't get close to a Fender tone. There's a certain tone that Fenders have (and Red Rhodes duplicated it pretty well with his Velvet Hammer guitar pickups) that are related to all that neat stuff Bill Lawrence talks about - it's physics, not knob twisting.