You Got To Look At This

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 12 Nov 2018 12:42 pm

Bill McCloskey wrote:I've never seen a steel where the pickups are on the same side as the tuning pegs.

Some early pedal steels produced by Gibson had that feature:

John Ford · Post by **John Ford** » 12 Nov 2018 5:24 pm

Great pics . Anymore . Do those look like horseshoe pickups?

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 12 Nov 2018 5:32 pm

I don't have information on that piece, but for some strange reason I would really like to own it! I'm serious.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 12 Nov 2018 5:42 pm

John Ford wrote:Great pics . Anymore . Do those look like horseshoe pickups?

The instrument in the pics is from the collection of the National Music Museum at the University of South Dakota in Vermillion.

http://nmmusd.org/Collections

Scroll down to the page entitled "Electric and Electronic Instruments" and "Checklist of Electric Guitars by Gibson." Then look for "NMM 5918. Electric pedal steel guitar by Gibson, Inc., Kalamazoo, Michigan, 1941" and click for more pics.

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 12 Nov 2018 6:06 pm

Jack Hanson, I don't think I totally agree with that thought. Their is just too many things that don't really line up. Knee levers for one, and then their is the PA tone changer. Yes, when you look at the Gibson guitar it is very close in looks and it could be one and someone did their thing to it. I hope we can find out more about this guitar, it may turn out that pedal steel has been around a lot longer than Bud Isasic's.
Thanks, J.R.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 13 Nov 2018 7:02 am

J R Rose wrote:Jack Hanson, I don't think I totally agree with that thought.

To which thought are you referring, J R?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 13 Nov 2018 7:19 am

I am no expert, but I am not sure it's a Gibson. Unless they had different versions of their pedal steel. I went to the site Jack posted, and there are way too many differences. Pedals, changer, pickup, knee levers. The knee levers look like clutch pedals from a old car.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 13 Nov 2018 7:30 am

Richard Sinkler wrote:I am no expert, but I am not sure it's a Gibson.

I'm certainly no expert, but I agree that it's definitely not a Gibson. Regret that I may have given the impression that it was.

In any event, the Gibson influence is unmistakable. The organ-like wooden cabinet, and the keyheads and pickups on the same side of the fretboard are but two similarities.

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 13 Nov 2018 9:40 am

My thought was like what Richard said, J.R.

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 13 Nov 2018 9:44 am

Hello John, Is their any way you can get this turned upside down and take some pictures? Thanks, J.R.

John Ford · Post by **John Ford** » 13 Nov 2018 11:47 am

Im going to take more pictures tomorrow. It does not live at my house.

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 13 Nov 2018 4:18 pm

Bill McCloskey wrote:I've never seen a steel where the pickups are on the same side as the tuning pegs.

Many of the very early pedal steels were set up like that. It was not a very good system and they had serious issues with returning sharp or flat.

Does not look like anything PA Bigsby built to my limited experience....
Still that instrument looks like it deserves a bit of a clean up just for old time sake.

Deke Dickerson · Post by **Deke Dickerson** » 13 Nov 2018 8:35 pm

John, I'm certainly one of the ones that looks forward to more photos of this thing! When you take photos of the front, can you also take some more detailed photos of the "PA Tone Levers"??

This thing is super intriguing. Would also love to know who was the owner of this thing, that might also answer some questions about it. I'm guessing this is a West Coast steel guitar, though the exact maker is unknown. Looks too crude for Paul Bigsby's work, but the "PA Tone Levers" might indeed be made by him.

Looking forward to more photos!

Deke

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 13 Nov 2018 8:51 pm

To my eye the "PA" Letters on those tone levers look close to, but not quite the same as lettering Bigsby used*, but the workmanship looks so different.

Also those levers have roller nuts on a steel that looks like it was made so long ago, 30's or 40's maybe?
I've only seen roller nuts on a steel made by him in the early 60's.
*A little like the "PA" on that Fry Pan that was auctioned not too long ago.

Would be good to see closer and better detailed photos, but my guess with far less experience is not Bigsby stuff. His work had a whole different look to it.

Deke Dickerson · Post by **Deke Dickerson** » 13 Nov 2018 10:13 pm

Andy, my guess is that it's probably a combination of eras.

After all, knee levers weren't even a CONCEPT until the early 60's, right?

If I had to lay money on it, I'd say the steel itself was built in the 40's with those Rickenbacker pickups and the PA Tone Levers.

The roller nuts and the knee levers were probably added in the 60's.

There's lots of other really odd stuff on this machine! But it definitely doesn't seem locked into one era, probably modified as it went along.

Deke

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 13 Nov 2018 10:43 pm

Hi Deke,
Your judgement has to be better than mine with all your collecting experience.
First time I saw this I thought it was a sewing machine!

Looking at the PA tone changers it looks like the roller nut part was cast in when they were made. Still I don't think it looks like his work.
I think your right about it being from the 40's and possibly the knee levers were added much later?
The pedals while lined up just like the ones he did on Speedy's guitar don't look like his work or his casting.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Zane Beck was putting knee levers on non pedal steels in the years before Slowly.

Too bad it's not close enough for you to go have a look.
Will be interesting to see more photos. Seeing the underside would be very educational to say the least.
Whatever the case, Would be a very interesting item to save and restore.

BTW, I really liked your two books. Made for a fun and educational read.
Best wishes,
Andy

Deke Dickerson · Post by **Deke Dickerson** » 14 Nov 2018 6:21 am

Thanks Andy--I love me a good guitar mystery!

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 14 Nov 2018 2:30 pm

Hey Andy, I also have heard and I think I made a comment on another post about Zane Beck who was doing some kind of add on with knee levers long before Bud and Webb and Slowly. J.R.

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 14 Nov 2018 7:54 pm

I got to lay hands on this thing today...John and I used to play together when we were younger and prettier.

What ever it is, it's certainly intriguing. Hope he doesn't mind me posting a couple of pics that I took. He might have some that show more detail to post later.

On the neck with the strings, you will see strings 2,3,4, and 5 are the ones raised. Andy noticed that the tone changer is cast in one piece. You will see on the neck with the strings, the cast "nut" opens on 2 & 3, then 4 & 5 and has a machined roller for each pair. Pushing downward on the top of the finger pushes the larger grooved roller onto the string to raise. If the pedal cables were operable, they would pull the finger down over the string. The neck without strings differs as it only has a single roller for #2 & #3 strings, and is mounted differently. The frets are unusual...they appear to be brass, but covered with a very thin wood. Position markers appear to be raised wood dowels.

Here's a shot of the underside showing knees and whatever else there is! I found the storage bags interesting - all but one are made from either sea turtle or alligator!

I find it to be like a bad wreck...I can't keep from looking at it...it would be great to know the history!

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 14 Nov 2018 10:26 pm

Kenny Davis wrote:

Here's a shot of the underside showing knees and whatever else there is! I found the storage bags interesting - all but one are made from either sea turtle or alligator!

I find it to be like a bad wreck...I can't keep from looking at it...it would be great to know the history!

Oh Boy the photos just deepen the mystery...
In the second photo it looks like bike cables from the pedals and knee levers. Also is that a ladies handbag attached to the side in the lower right?
Maybe that was for picks and bar?

What makes me think it is not PA Bigsby steel is that he was a talented machinist and casting specialist for years before building steel guitars. That would be his years of work with Crocker Motorbikes. This work seems to be not close to that standard.

It's such an odd ball item I'd love to see if someone got it cleaned up and back to working again.

Looking forward to seeing more photos. We have yet to see the front? Maybe a mane there?
Also to see a single shot of the whole underside may help figure out how it was set up.

John Ford · Post by **John Ford** » 15 Nov 2018 9:45 am

more pics.

John Ford · Post by **John Ford** » 15 Nov 2018 9:48 am

John Ford · Post by **John Ford** » 15 Nov 2018 9:51 am

Plug it in to an amp and the pickup with strings sounded good. I suspect the other pu has been unhooked.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 15 Nov 2018 9:57 am

An amazing instrument -- thanks for sharing.

The 1941 Gibson Electraharp (via Alvino Rey & John Moore) influence seems unmistakable. Especially on the top side, and with the cabinet. Underneath -- not so much.

It would definitely be a worthy project to make it playable once again. Good luck!

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 15 Nov 2018 10:22 am

Very interesting guitar, I wonder if the cables are from
an old motorcycle? The pickup and knobs look something like an old Rickenbacker possibly. Very odd to see a guitar that looks that old with four knee levers? Maybe some sort of cable adjuster has been removed from the four foot pedals?

The Steel Guitar Forum

You Got To Look At This

Many were like that

The PA Letters?

Your judgement

Boy that just deepens the mystery...