Using steel in styles other than country.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 12 Nov 2005 11:12 am

The bulk of my gigs are non country and I rarely use FX or overdrive unless I'm replacing a guitar/keyboard player and they need those textures. What I do is wait and listen and then I sing along in my head (or outloud if its a loud enough stage). Then I just play what I was singing without embelishments at first. Another thing to do is double parts to build them up.
I listen to string quartets and try to follow the viola parts. If you can follow the viola and understand what it is doing you will never have a problem finding a way to contribute in a meaningful way no matter what the music is. The trombone parts in Ellington's music hold alot of secrets also. I prefer to be an important part of the internal structure of the music rather than stay on the surface.

Bob

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Nov 2005 11:47 am

There's a little secret in Bob Hoffnar's advice to follow the viola or trombone part. In country music, the steel is often the highest pitched line. When you move away from that position in the arrangement, you will sound less country.

Some people say "avoid the top 3 strings of the E9th". I don't think it's the strings themselves, but the fact that when you play them you will almost always be playing the highest note in the arrangement. "Steel on top" is country music in the ears of many listeners.

Steel players sometimes tell me that they don't hear the steel on some of the Open Hearts songs, yet I know that the steel is present and loud enough. We're used to listening for steel in the highest notes. If it's not there, we hardly notice it at all.

You can't make the string quartet sound without a viola, but nobody says "listen to that great viola player!". Sometimes you have to leave your ego at the door to participate in great music-making. Listen to Greg Leitz playing with Bill Frisell as an example.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 12 Nov 2005 1:59 pm

I have recorded with melodic shred-metal vituoso, Neil Zaza, several times. He likes to use pedal steel in a textural, rhythm manner. I try and arrange my parts to be reminiscent of a string trio. Cello on the bottom, the viola, and highest is violin. Neil really likes the slides and bends, but I must keep it resonable, as I'm not playing a lead, or melody funtion. JB

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 12 Nov 2005 2:39 pm

Thanks for all the great posts.
I would be interested to hear specific methods on E9 for playing music that has different harmonic and melodic requirements. The bar positions and pedal usage for different melodic content,etc. Does anyone dabble in triad summing or reharmonized pentatonics of any kind? I have'nt investigated summing on steel , but it seems as if it might have some interesting applications.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 12 Nov 2005 7:10 pm

"triad summing or reharmonized pentatonics"

Triad summing? Is that upper-structure triads? Regardless, if it works anywhere, it will work well on steel guitar.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Nov 2005 7:37 pm

If you can lower strings 2 and 9 to C# and, at the same time, lower strings 4 and 8 to D#, you will have a pentatonic scale on all strings. It's a position that I use a lot. In E minor it's at the 8th fret.

From there you can easily slide up to the 10th fret which is also an E minor pocket with the pedals.

P.S. I googled on "triad summing" and came up with nothing musical (Parallel Query Execution in Monet
on SMP Machines). I have no idea what the term means. The phrase "reharmonized pentatonics" also fails. Are you writing your own language?

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 12 November 2005 at 07:45 PM.]

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 12 Nov 2005 7:43 pm

Chas, that is one heck of a guitar! Man alive...

b0b brought up Greg Leisz... I hear he is on the forefront on doing stuff with non-country artists. I bet you he'd be the one to talk to.[This message was edited by Duane Reese on 12 November 2005 at 07:50 PM.]

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 12 Nov 2005 10:43 pm

Thanks Bob, I will check that out.
To clarify Triad Summing.
This is something that gives a "sound" of a certain harmony that can be used when you dont want to create a solo out of scales,for example; Alternating G and D triads will give a G major 9 "sound".The notes would beG-B-D-F#-A-G-B etc.
Alternating G and Dm triads would give a G9 "sound". G and Dflat triads would give a G7 altered "sound. The list goes on and on. You are "summing" the sounds of 2 triads to create a new sound. Also called hybrid arpeggios. Mess with them in different inversions and positions and you can get some interesting sounds.

To clarify reharmonized pentatonics; Say you have a D minor 7 chord . One approach would be to use pentatonics built on the major scale ( 1-2-3-5-6) and anchor them to certain tones of a dorian scale. There are 3 possibilities, all of which only use tones of D dorian. Start the pentatonic scale on the 3rd (F) and you get 3-11-5-7-1. Start on C and get 7-1-9-11-5. Start on G and get 11-5-13-1-9. So one set of intervals can produce different "sounds" when begun on different scale tones. They are all consonant with the scale and chord yet different from each other. Just wondering if anyone had worked any of these things into steel. I use them all the time on guitar, just havent worked them into steel yet as I am not as well versed on psg, I intend to soon. Let me know if any of you find them to be useful.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 12 Nov 2005 11:22 pm

I guess why I am so interested in these things is because steel, as a positional instrument, could probably benefit from reharm. techniques that give additional mileage and harmonic results from simple ideas that can be moved around easily. I dont think anyone would want to base their playing style solely on things like this.( I certainly dont on guitar), but these concepts are very useful once they are internalized and used to create music. In fact they give sounds that are very hard to decipher other than by understanding the reharmonization that produces them. When the "sounds become second nature to the player the result is very musical.

P.S im always smilin,hence the smileys.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Nov 2005 11:55 pm

The position I described above is the 1 2 3 5 6 that you describe, is B natural at the nut. The bottom 5 strings give you B C# D# F# G# and the top 5 are octaves of those in a different order. To get your D dorian pentatonics:

At the 1st fret, you have the notes C D E G A.
At the 6th fret, you have the notes F G A C D.
At the 8th fret, you have the notes G A B D E.

Using the 2nd pedal (G# to A) and lowering the 2nd and 9th strings to C# gives you the same notes at positions 2 frets higher. You can ignore the 2nd and 9th strings and use the first pedal to alternate between the B and C#. We call this the pedals down or A6th position. It gives you your same three D dorian pentatonic scales at frets 3, 8 and 10.

The there's the open E position. Again, lower 2 and 9 to C# or use your first pedal to get that note. The notes at the nut are B C# E F# G#. Your pentatonics are:

1st fret C D F G A
3rd fret D E G A B
8th fret G A C D E

If you press your 2nd pedal and lower your 2nd string to D, you have the following notes at the 3rd fret: D F G A C. Look familiar?

3rd fret D F G A C
5th fret E G A B D
10th fret A C D E G

The bottom line is that there are pentatonic scales all over the place in the standard E9th copedent. They're actually hard to avoid!

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 13 Nov 2005 12:43 am

ThanksBob........... Sounds like those kinds of things will translate well to steel. I'll check it out. Let me know if you end up with any success with triad summing. Thanks again.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Nov 2005 9:00 am

Your "summing triads" simply confuses me, Mark. If I want a G9 sound, I play the notes from a G9. Thinking of it as Dm over G just confuses the issue in my mind.

So does the pentatonic stuff, by the way. I know my full diatonic scales in a lot of positions. I can skip notes in them at will, at any position. I tend to think of the relationship of each note to the current chord.

In your Dm7 example, each note of the scale has a unique relationship to the chord. I'll avoid the B note, for example, until I want to stress the dissonant m6 effect, and I'll avoid hanging on the G until I want that sus4 tension.

I probably use the "reharmonized pentatonics" that you describe, but I really don't think in terms of pentatonic scales very often. I'm afraid that, if I did, I'd overlook the other two notes of the scale that are also available at those positions. I use pentatonic riffs for primitive effect sometimes, but I always keep open the option of adding those other two notes into the mix.

See what happens when musicians don't have a gig on a Saturday night?

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 13 November 2005 at 09:03 AM.]

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 13 Nov 2005 10:07 am

Let the rest of us know as soon as you guys have packed away your slide-rules, and pieces of paper with all the formulas, and finally start to play music. It may then also be a good idea to include an explanatary note with each song so done. I know of a steeler who's been into the stuff under discussion, but up to today he still can't play a full song on his steel; never mind whatever hybrid compositiopn he's been trying.

------------------
<img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20saut/images/nightmarefront85.jpg" border="0"><img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20 ... ront85.jpg" border="0"></a>Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied
CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
CD "Steel Smokin'"
Veruschka's CD "Don't Dream it's Over"
<A class=db href="mailto:alsaut@absamail.co.za?subject=Forum Reply">Click here to E-mail us.</A>

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Nov 2005 10:22 am

Funny that you should mention that, Nic. I actually made a steel guitar slide rule many years ago, to help me understand the musical theory that's locked in the instrument. Creating it was a great help to me. Using it, well, that was not as enlightening as I had hoped.

The bottom line is the music created. Musical theory is only of interest to music geeks, a small subgroup of musicians. Some of us play well and some of us don't.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Nov 2005 10:28 am

Thinking in polychords (which I assume is what you refer to as summing triads) works GREAT on a piano, not as well on a guitar, and miserably on a pedal steel.

You can play one chord with one hand on a piano and another with the other. On a guitar you can add notes by adding fingers (until you run out of them). On pedal steel, the limitations of the instrument make this approach very unwieldy.

Like b0b says, if I want a CMa9, I'll select the scale tones that spell that chord rather than superimposing a G and C triad.

It is useful to think stacked thirds and understand tritone subs and stuff like that, but on pedal steel, superimposing chords requires as much or more thought than just fully elaborating the chord by spelling it out, IMHO.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 13 November 2005 at 11:11 AM.]

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 13 Nov 2005 6:37 pm

Didnt mean to start controversy with this.
Nick.....I can play many songs on steel, I thought this way of looking at things might be interesting on steel. Perhaps not. Triad summing isn't chords, rather the notes played singly as in arpeggios. The notes that are left out in these sums contribute as much to the sound as the notes which are played. Bob .... thanks for the map of pentatonics. I dont know if any of these things would be of benefit on steel , just asking. They are fairly accepted im prov tools in jazz. I thought they might be a useful addition when used on steel. In speaking of emulating horn lines,these are some of the tools horn players use.

Now where did I put that darned slide rule?

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 13 November 2005 at 06:47 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 13 Nov 2005 8:05 pm

Nic made a good point...I'll repeat what I quoted in another thread, the quote from banjo wizard Pat Cloud: "just grab the handle and mash 'em down".

I've realized you HAVE to know some theory to be successful on steel, but you can't let the methodology overpower the ultimate result. In other words, it's the music that matters, not the "rules".

FWIW I have no idea what Larry's post said. Not knocking Larry, but do THAT many of us get that deep into the structure?

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 13 Nov 2005 11:55 pm

Music theory can be a complicated bugger, but it seems like the ones who know it best wind up with the best sounding music... I actually used to think that the more I knew, the less I'd enjoy music because it'd go from being great sound to a big math problem; turns out that my appreciation got deeper and wider as a result.

This might be good for a lot of us to try this stuff out to enhance vocabulary and make our approach more elastic.

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 14 Nov 2005 12:06 am

Nic and Jim........ I agree totally. All music has some method to it and the last thing most people would want to do is just rattle off theoretic applications and call it music. Like anything else,it is a tool that when well integrated can become a persons own voice along with the many other things they use to create music. I dont tend to see theory as a "geek" thing. If someone uses theory to enable them to speak on their instrument what is inside them,it's great. Theory for theory sake is not what im talking about. Theory alone is obviously not music.
Larry........ I tried some triad summing on the steel tonight and you were correct. It is fairly inconvenient and hard to do although at slow tempos it still creates some interesting arpeggios. I certainly cant do it at sufficient tempo to use in up solos, but thats just me.
Hey duane........ Played at Crawlers tonight, didnt use any thoery though. On some of the rock tunes I still am not too comfy but I used a couple of things I learned from posts on this thread and elsewhere on this great forum and it went better. Maybe theres hope for me. Thanks for everyones posts, and I mean Everyone.
PS the country stuff went along just dandy.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Nov 2005 8:55 am

Jim,
If you think what Mark and I have been talking about is 'deep' in theory, you should read what jazz players study. Most every jazz player not only reads and writes music fluently but also digs deep to understand the why's as well as the what's. Many steel players are not that inquisitive. Some jazz and classical players pursue masters or PhD degrees that penetrate much deeper than I can comprehend. My approach to theory is much less rigorous.

Is this stuff necessary to play country or three chord rock? No. If it doesn't intrigue you, DON'T STUDY IT. I am a math minor and a scientist for my entire career. I'll be the first to admit that the physics and math of music intrigue me and am not insulted when called a musical geek. In fact it's a badge of honor.

Please understand that theory is a SIDELIGHT and SUPPLEMENT to playing music. Nobody ever said it was critical to understand how the system of scales, chords, and progressions work to play music. It's not necessary to study calculus to balance your check book.

I do play music too, and have for more than 45 years. I find that I need to understand some of the logic behind the music to fully appreciate it. If you don't, that's cool.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 14 Nov 2005 10:12 am

What an interesting thread! Besides my remarks made in my earlier post, I do follow the debate closely. I have found that playing some of these 'scales' in a convenient place on the neck, I end up most of the time not near enough to some point to continue a meaningful solo. I've actually given up trying to insert too many notes, and rather try to sneak some short burst where appropiate, while soloing. So, do continue....its all very interesting.
My reference to 'being able to actually play a solo' was in jest, and to get your attention.

Regards,
Nic

------------------
<img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20saut/images/nightmarefront85.jpg" border="0"><img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20 ... ront85.jpg" border="0"></a>Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied
CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
CD "Steel Smokin'"
Veruschka's CD "Don't Dream it's Over"
<A class=db href="mailto:alsaut@absamail.co.za?subject=Forum Reply">Click here to E-mail us.</A>

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 14 Nov 2005 11:01 am

Please understand that theory is a SIDELIGHT and SUPPLEMENT to playing music. Nobody ever said it was critical to understand how the system of scales, chords, and progressions work to play music.

To expand on this, because I think learning theory is important, but not necessary. Upon exiting a concert, where the program was mostly Bach, we were talking, and of course I asked, 'how'd you like it?' and she replied 'it was great' , 'what did you like about it'?, 'it sounded really good'.

Besides, being played very well, you don't have to know why it sounded good to know that it sounded good. And you don't have to know how it was constructed to know that it was constructed brilliantly and in fact, you don't have to think about the construction at all, because it sounded good.

Using an antique watch as an analogy. When I look at the outside, it shows the time and I appreciate the beauty of what it looks like. When I look inside to see the mechanism of how it does that, I have a deeper appreciation of how it does what it does.[This message was edited by chas smith on 14 November 2005 at 11:01 AM.]

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 14 Nov 2005 11:17 am

Hey Larry........ I find stuff like that interesting as well. I like your description of theory as a sidelight. A long time ago I started looking at playing "Horn like" lines on guitar and came up with tons of info on how horn guys were constructing solos and even heads. Most all of it translated really well to guitar. This may not be the case with steel. Any specific tips on rock playing would be appreciated as well. Is any Joe wright stuff available? Does he use standard E9 ?
Nic........ I took the comment as intended but you are correct that some people fall into that catagory. I know a couple myself.
I am not a great soloist and steel is not my primary instrument although someday who knows. I think that connecting ideas together is very important to using them musically. If they are tough to connect with other things you use then their usefulness would be in question. Those major pentatonic scales used over minor 7 came about with the advent of "modal" jazz.(tunes built on 1 or so minor chords). In an effort to not sound boring, Sax players and the like came up with that as a way to play different "sounds" which emphasize different scale tones in patterns which were repeatable and easy to execute at quick tempos. There are many more techniques they use as well and when a great horn guy does it you would never know they were using theory per se. Very musical and flowing. It may not translate to steel too well and may not be an approach that says what an individual wants to say with their playing. Tastes in music are really subjective which is a good thing. If everyone thought the same I dont think anything would ever get done. Its all good......For someone.
Any tips on rock or blues playing (positions,boxes etc.)? Where can I get "Nightmare on emmons street" sounds interesting.
In general,I've played lots of different music over time and found that one style will often work in context with another,within reason. I was playin lots of bebop a few years ago and the band would always perk up when I would use double stops or open string banjo style licks over changes. Didnt sound country over Confirmation. Kinda funny. These same guys would never EVER listen to country. They have no idea what they are missing . Arent we lucky.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Nov 2005 11:21 am

Joe Wright plays E9/B6 universal 12 string.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 14 Nov 2005 11:40 am

Mark,
Talk that that...I used to sit down with a sax player (In our Navy Band), and we would experiment with different modal approaches.
My 'Nightmare' album contains mostly all 'vanilla' country solos.
The new release (Steel Smokin) has a few surprises. There's a Bud Schank tune, as well as "African' type tune. This may be a new type of rhythm for the guys in good old USA. Fun to play, though.
Hey!!...one of the tunes from "nightmare' is now playing on Steelradio.

Regards,

------------------
<img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20saut/images/nightmarefront85.jpg" border="0"><img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20 ... ront85.jpg" border="0"></a>Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied
CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
CD "Steel Smokin'"
Veruschka's CD "Don't Dream it's Over"
<A class=db href="mailto:alsaut@absamail.co.za?subject=Forum Reply">Click here to E-mail us.</A>