Nylon Tuning Nut Thread Size?

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 19 Oct 2005 2:38 pm

I stripped one of the rods on my Franklin. I thought Paul Sr. told me they were 6/40 but I can't find a die that size at the local hardware store.

thx

bob

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 19 Oct 2005 3:57 pm

Paul Sr. didn't get where he is today by using parts you could replace at your local hardware store!

"ET, phone home!"

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 19 Oct 2005 4:33 pm

Bob, I don't know anything about Franklin Guitars, but I got a 4-40 die for my Sho-Bud at micromark.com. I noticed they have a 6-32 die, if that's any help.

I'm not an expert on this, but with nylon tuners, maybe there isn't much difference, (between 6-40 & 6-32) other than the pitch changing at a slightly faster rate while rotating.

Someone with expertise here will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, or say that a substitute thread size won't work, as not to mislead you.

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Mike Barone
Sho-Bud Pro-1 5&4 with RHL | Nashville 112
Assorted Guitars & Keyboards

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Oct 2005 5:04 pm

I don't know what size rods Mr. Franklin uses, but 6-40 is a common thread size. Dies should not be too hard to find. Matter of fact, I have 3 or 4 of them myself.

If the local hdwe. doesn't have it, maybe check with ww.grainger if there's one in your area, Sears, or check with a machine shop for a supplier. Heck, they might even run the threads for you for a small fee.

The reason for using fine threads, 40 tpi, is that it gives you more precise fine tuning over 32 tpi.

If that is indeed the size you need and can't find one anywhere, I might be willing to part with one of mine.

[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 19 October 2005 at 06:23 PM.]

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 19 Oct 2005 5:08 pm

Thanks, Michael

I might try the 6-32. If it doesn't work, I'll have to buy a new rod.

thx

bob

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 19 Oct 2005 5:28 pm

Bob, are you sure you stripped the threads? That sure seems unlikely since the tuning nut is nylon. If it is stripped then in order to use the same rod you would probably need to get a 5-40 threader and get a new nylon tuning nut. You could thread the rod with a 5-40, turn the nylon tuning nut around and using a small drill such as a 5/32's bit drill completely thru the nylon tuner thru the other end, turn the tuner around and thread it back onto the smaller threads of the rod and back in business.
Jerry

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 19 Oct 2005 5:41 pm

Sorry, Jerry

I should have explained. The hole in the changer was too small to push the rod through but big enough to thread it through. I should have cleaned up the hole first but after a long day of removing the crossrod and assorted parts and moving the rods from pedal 4 C6 to pedal 4 E9, I was excited to finish the job. The Franklin uses aluminum pull rods and you can see that the threads are flattened out. They hold for a while but then pull out.

thx

bob

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 20 Oct 2005 2:08 am

They are 6-40 on the Franklin rods. A 6-40 die is hard to find - I've got one but it took a long time and I found it, used, at a flea market.

You can buy them at some tool supply places (usually a special order) and last time I checked they were about $30 because it is a "specialty" item.

You need the 6-40 because of the size of the rod, however a benefit of the finer threads is a finer adjustment range.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 20 Oct 2005 7:02 am

http://www.mcmaster.com/

Part Number: 2602A282 $28.64 Each
Inch Size 6-40
Thread Type NF (National Fine)
Thread Direction Right-Hand Thread
Die Type Round Adjustable
Outside Diameter 1", Material High-Speed Steel

Part Number: 2602A52 $22.03 Each
System of Measurement Inch
Inch Size 6-40
Thread Type NF (National Fine)
Thread Direction Right-Hand Thread
Die Type Round Adjustable
Outside Diameter 13/16"
Material High-Speed Steel

You may want to buy the little die holder if you don't have one. Be sure to match the die holder to the OD of the die.

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 20 October 2005 at 08:03 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 20 Oct 2005 7:05 am

I was looking for some small tap and dies a while ago and found them at the local NAPA auto parts store. They didn't have them in stock but they were in their catalog and I had them in just a few days.
Erv

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 20 Oct 2005 7:19 am

FWIW, I used to do quite a bit of rod threading, and would see these dies quite often a few years back.
Looks like they are not as common now as I thought. They can still be found at a reasonable price though.

I ran across this last night. Don't know anything about the company but it appears they sell tools for repairing musical instruments.

At this list price, looks like you can buy maybe a half dozen for $30!

My offer still stands though, if you don't have any luck. http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jppqpnk8

edited to add the following:
>>>>or....how about this. You make a forum donation in my name of at least $10 and I'll mail you one!

[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 20 October 2005 at 09:09 AM.]

Tony Smart · Post by **Tony Smart** » 20 Oct 2005 2:10 pm

Can someone enlighten me on why they use a 6-40 thread on an 1/8 rod. The correct size O.D. for a 6-40 thread is .138". The correct size for 1/8 would be 5-40. The only thing I can think of is that the threads are "rolled" instead of cut thus swelling the metal. -- Anyone know for sure?
Tony

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 20 Oct 2005 2:21 pm

Paul Franklin told me why he did it but I don't remember. But the 6-40 does provide enough tread depth for the nylon tuning "nut". It's done with a die, not rolled.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 20 Oct 2005 6:37 pm

So, do the tuning nuts themselves come in different female thread sizes?

bob

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 20 Oct 2005 7:12 pm

Bob, the tuning nuts are not threaded. When you force screw them onto the threaded rod the rod cuts threads in them. That is why I suggested you turn the nut around and drill a hole thru the end that is not threaded. You could drill a smaller hole and it would go on tight. It would probably work with the threads that remain on the rod. Chances are the threads in the tuning nut have been wallowed out. Of course it would be better to have a new rod and tuning nut but chances are with a new tuning nut you would not need to do anything to the rod threads. Until you can get the new nut, why not drill the other end, turn it around and thread it onto the rod for a fix until new parts can be obtained. Don't try to start the drill in the end that has no hole but rather use the existing hole as a pilot and drill from that end completely thru the other end. just drill a large enough size for the nut to tightly thread onto the rod. I would start small and graduate up until you can get it to start. You can hold the tuning nut in the tuning wrench to drill it.
Jerry

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 20 Oct 2005 7:34 pm

Jerry,

Sorry, I missed that in your other post. I did borrow a few good tuner nuts from the C6 boo-wah which I don't use much. Those are probably stripped out too. The re-drilling with a slightly smaller drill sounds like a simple fix. I'll try to tomorrow.

thx

bob

ps: where do you buy the tuning nuts? From each builder?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 21 Oct 2005 2:36 am

You can get them from Franklin. George L's sells various sizes and lengths. If you get them from Franklin you will be sure of getting the correct size and length.

If you order them from Franklin, also order a new pull rod for the one that is damaged. It will probably be cheaper than buying a thread die.

Franklin Guitar Co. 615-865-4754

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 21 Oct 2005 4:44 am

Thank you Jerry Roller! I'll do it today.

From an old topic http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/011076.html
scroll down one for a Rains dealer who apparently has them.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 23 Oct 2005 10:12 am

Sho~Bud used a 5-40 thread on the rods and nylon tuners, not 4-40!!!!!

You can get 5-40 taps and dies from stores that sell quality hand and power tools and accessories.

Wiz

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 2 Nov 2005 5:33 pm

I got a 4-40 and a 5-40 die from the local lumber yard here today for my Carter. $3.24 each. I am using aluminum rods to expand the tuning a little bit....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 2 Nov 2005 5:50 pm

I ended up cleaning up the threads with a 6-32. Seems to be working fine.

thanks to all!

bob

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 2 Nov 2005 6:56 pm

The lower number (denominator) of the 6/40 (ie. 40) refers to threads per inch. The reason that a 40 is preferred to a 32 is that the more threads/inch (the higher number) the easier it is to be accurate tuning the pedal/knee stops. The top number (numerator) refers to the size of the rod (in our case). A size 6 would be appropriate for a 1/8 (.125") rod- (fairly common), a 5 for a smaller rod (.108" found in some guitars), and a size 4 for a 3/32" (.093" -less common). Some debate the necessity for using a rod as stout as .125" for our application. A 6/40 die can be found at a real hardware store (not Home Depot)- even our local one (Denault's True Value) has a 6/40 die in stock. [This message was edited by Jim Palenscar on 02 November 2005 at 06:57 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 2 Nov 2005 8:06 pm

I bet no one will believe that they aren't threaded at all. The rod cuts the thread on the nylon when you screw them on. If you thread the nylon, you'll have a worn out nylon pretty fast, but then , I don't really expect anyone to believe this. But I know of may builders that have been doing this for years, [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 02 November 2005 at 08:07 PM.]

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 2 Nov 2005 8:53 pm

Hey Jerry,

Did you hear what Bobbe said?

bob

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 3 Nov 2005 4:22 am

Sorry, I didn't see my friend Jerry's post, but yes he is totally correct!

(guess I should read before I post!)