UPS is 100% Dependable

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 27 Oct 2005 8:44 am

...or at least I've been able to depend on them so far to lose, misdirect or damage any package they have handled for me. One hundred percent of the time.
First I'll acknowledge that this topic is not really about pedal steel. But all of us who play them have had to ship them at one time or another and it's always cause for concern.
This latest UPS saga began when a merchant in southern Ontario shipped a steel to me by UPS. From past experience I was leery about this but this merchant is set up with a UPS account and they are his regular and preferred courrier. My mistake. I should have insisted on an alternate shipper and believe me, from this point forward I will. UPS took the guitar and shipped it several hundred miles east in my direction and then some overachiever ( I'm convinced UPS hires only people with beans in their ears) sent it back in the opposite direction to a sorting facility about a hundred miles west of where it was shipped from. There it sat in limbo from Saturday morning until Monday night. ( the poor thing was probably afraid to speak up for fear of being kicked to smithereens like some of the other hapless boxes) So Monday night they finally got my instrument headed out on the road again, but despite my having paid for 3 day shipping it didn't get here until Thursday...a full 7 days from when it was shipped. But there's more! UPS uses a subcontracter to deliver in this area ( the subcontractor apparently hires only the people that UPS has rejected...folks with no room for any more beans in their ears) and the guitar was dumped off on my back gallery before 6am without my knowledge. A three thousand dollar guitar sat outdoors in the dampness for several hours before it was discovered. It could have been stolen...it could have been rained on. Maybe it's just me but I find this ridiculously bad service.
So I went after a refund. I argued and sparred with I don't know how many UPS people on the phone and eventually they agreed that I was entitled to have the shipping refunded. BUT! It has to be the 'shipper' , not the 'shippee' who demands the refund. Do you reckon this is an accident? Not likely. In most cases, particularly where a purchased item is being shipped to a purchaser, the shipper hasn't lost a cent over a mishandled shipment and therefore has a lot less incentive to chase after the courrier for a refund than the buyer who is out the money.
Ah well. I don't hold out much hope of ever seeing the refund but UPS and I have reached the end of the road. Never again will I deal with them or with anyone who insists on using them. [This message was edited by Bill Miller on 27 October 2005 at 09:45 AM.]

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 27 Oct 2005 9:14 am

sorry to hear of your experience. it does sound typical. and not of just UPS.
service in general is tanking.

I remember the slogan 'service with a smile".
when did it become 'service with a sneer'
or
'huh?'

actually, I know, but I dont want to get into politics of the hyper rich argument just now.[This message was edited by Randy Reeves on 27 October 2005 at 10:16 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 27 Oct 2005 9:53 am

I know we all have shipping-related horror stories (like when UPS in Naples failed to put a $9,000 Martin that I'd sent 'Next Day Air' into the system, or when they left my $3,000 custom-shop Martin on my front step in the August heat after I'd expressly told them I'd collect it!!!!), but I've found that Fedex always ring my doorbell, or they leave a note if I'm out - they've never left the article unattended.

Others may have a different tale to tell, but Fedex also seem to work a little later into the evening - presumably because more people are home then (?)....

The recent delivery of my repaired Peavey NV-112 came via Fedex, and was delivered at 9.00 pm.

RR

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 27 Oct 2005 10:00 am

Here, FedEx has always left the package (steel guitar) unattended in the driveway, except when they have lost or destroyed it first.
UPS on the other hand has always rung the bell, and never left a package unattended.

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 27 Oct 2005 12:07 pm

Im a DHL guy anymore. Faster and better,nothing broken,Cheaper. Try them.
Ray Walker told me about them. Ray ships alot of seats and has alot of data with which to make a decision.

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 27 Oct 2005 12:37 pm

Bill, The best way to ship heavy boxes within Canada is by Greyhound bus. I purchased 2 steels in Alberta by phone, and had them within 4 days, and the boxes looked almost as clean as when they left the shop.

In my experience with UPS, I always track my items on their website and then call to have them hold it for me to pickup. They split the case of my Emmons D10, but oh well, that's what a case is for, and the case was beat to hell to begin with, so I can't exactly walk into the place and complain.

One good thing that UPS has over FedEx is that customs brokerage is done in-house. FedEx uses private companies for this who take their job much more seriously. With UPS any value can be written on the waybill, and you will pay the tax on that. With the exchange rates and whatnot, this translates into hundreds of dollars in savings. If you are importing something from the USA, of course. I've bought a few 50 dollar steel guitars like this.

And insurance on your package, forget that. Anything that is not new cannot be insured anyway.

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 27 Oct 2005 1:14 pm

Glenn, Greyhound doesn't serve this area although they might have arrangements made with subcontractors...not sure. But subcontractors are all bad news in my experience. They're getting a small cut of what you paid for the shipping and they have to cut way too many corners to stay in business. Out here where I live I've found that you can't beat Canada Post or Purloator. And now those two entities have some sort of partnership for parcel delivery. I shipped a steel all the way to Baffin Island by Canada Post 'Expresspost' and they did it quickly and the instrument arrived in great shape. Of course the thing about Canada Post is that you have to take the item you're shipping to the post office so it's less convenient.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Oct 2005 1:21 pm

double hit[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 October 2005 at 02:22 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Oct 2005 1:22 pm

the only damage I have ever had was from FED EX and the Post Office...Fed Ex smashed a Fender Speaker cabint I bought.

UPS has been fine for me..2 or 3 Steels, a full Bass rig, several amps, Several Guitars..etc..no issues..

Oh, I almost forgot..the US post office broke the neck off a guitar I bought off of EBAY..They also lost a PC I sold, it came back 7 months later..while they were trying to find it , it arrived one day..out of the clear blue sky..

oh well...

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 27 Oct 2005 1:58 pm

I worked with my brother for 10 years and we ordered parts daily. It was very rare to get a package that had been damaged by UPS. With that being said, we was not ordering amps and musical equiptment or things of that nature. Today, my wife sells Avon and the UPS man will knock on the door, and by the time you get there he has left the boxes on the porch and even under the carport. I always thought we were supposed to sign for anything that was delivered but apparently I was wrong. If anything ever gets stolen they will have no signature from my wife or I.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 27 Oct 2005 2:05 pm

and they will be liable for it.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 27 Oct 2005 5:49 pm

Not unless the shipper paid for signature release. This cost extra with both FedEX and UPS.
I've had good luck with both.But it's luck and great packing thats made it work for me.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 27 Oct 2005 6:34 pm

But it's luck and great packing thats made it work for me.

So true. I try to pack like the worst thing imaginable is going to happen.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 27 Oct 2005 7:34 pm

FEDEX or DHL.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 27 Oct 2005 9:40 pm

I've had directly the opposite experience.

UPS has been the only service 100% reliable in my experience. Never lost a package, never had one late or misdelivered, and had two damage claims, both paid without question. All my problems have been FedEx (leaving boxes in the rain; or not leaving them when waivers were signed) USPS (the pits. I only mail letters, never packages) FedEx Ground (which is NOT Fed Ex - it's privately contracted, and abysmal) and Airborne, which has been the least reliable of all.

I've shipped probably 2000 packages and received at least several hundred.

FWIW I'lll add this - no matter what shipper you use, pack your item to handle an 8' fall onto concrete and in a water-resistant bag inside the box. The fall is exactly what can happen in an automated shipping facility. And if you make a friend out of your regular UPS driver, you'll get even better service.

"the guitar was dumped off on my back gallery before 6am"

I'd be willing to bet a nickle that the shipper didn't mark the "adult signature required" box, nor did he pack to protect from moisture. Can't blame the shipping company if the shipper didn't request the correct service.

"and they will be liable for it."

Nope. Not unless the shipper requested and paid for the signature-required service.

Almost every single problem related to delivery or damage that I've read about have been related to actions (or omissions) on the part of the shipper, not the carrier.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 27 October 2005 at 10:47 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 28 Oct 2005 1:37 am

"And if you make a friend out of your regular UPS driver, you'll get even better service."
Or FedEx, or whoever. The route drivers around here know me, and know that the stuff being delivered, is usually fairly delicate, and they handle it accordingly. Same with USPS. I grew up with all the folks at my local Post Office, the mail carrier is a music lover, and I've had ONE mishap (with UPS) in I-don't-know-how-many-years. And UPS paid the claim in a couple of weeks.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Oct 2005 2:10 am

Stephen and Bobby are I believe right on the button..

With our home business, I ship UPS exclusively..but I pack like a Bear is gonna sit on it. Maybe 400 packages/year, I can count on 2 or 3 fingers the amount of times I have to file a claim...

The biggest issue is how items are packed. I have seen folks pack a box with foam peanuts..low and behold..damage..why ? Because they settle to about 50% of what they were when the item was first put in the box... have seen folks put a very heavey speaker cabinet in a very light weight box...

IF you drop items off at one of those pack and ship places, this is what they do..fill the box with peanuts. But they are Professional Peanuts I am told....

I received a Nashville 400 once in a very lightweight box with peanuts in it. It survived because IT is a surviver.But it was NOT packed anything close to CORRECT.

We know our Post Office and UPS drivers by first name..they are very fine folks..If we are not home..they know what to do..and they do it...

Next time it's 100 degrees and one of them show up with a delivery..offer them a COLD bottle of Water or Soda..you will have gained a friend for life.One of the UPS guys is a Musician, he comes in and we talk gear for a few minutes now and then...One of the UPS guys was overwhelmed with HEAT, we made him come in the house (Bobby) and sit until he felt better.

We receive perhaps 10 UPS packages /week, I can't remember when the last one arrived damaged.

The Post Office puts mail in our mailbox, we
don't sign for it, but yet we are responsible to pay the BILL that is in the mailbox regardless if we receive it or not..

It is NOT standard practice to sign for UPS /FED EX...

UPS, FED EX etc are almost all automated now..YOU MUST pack like it is gonna fall off the conveyor...because it probably will.

If you are shipping an AMP or STEEL, fabricate your own box and leave the handle on the outside for the "HANDLER"..

How would you like to be a UPS guy and pick up a box that weighs 60/70 pounds and no way to handle it ? Hello 2 foot drop....

Pack smart

like it will fall off a 2 or 3 foot conveyor.
Use a real box, not one from the grocery store intended for Paper Towels...

I am amazed sometimes when someone will ship a $2000 Instrument in a 50 cent box...

ok..rant over

Tommy Mc · Post by **Tommy Mc** » 28 Oct 2005 4:37 am

BUT! It has to be the 'shipper' , not the 'shippee' who demands the refund.

I have plenty of issues with UPS, but in all fairness you should realize that it was the 'shipper' who paid for the service. I know that indirectly, you paid shipping, but that is between you and the sender.

Stephen Winters · Post by **Stephen Winters** » 28 Oct 2005 5:18 am

Just my experiences here:
UPS - 100% on time and undamaged..sometimes a day early. I request them whenever possible.

FedEx - about 80% on time. All packages for my area go through the Greenville, MS hub. Those guys can not find my house and I live on a state highway. They usually have to re-route the package to the Memphis hub, and those guys drive right to my house.

DHL - useless. Have had about 10 packages shipped to me through them. They delivered three of them to addresses in Memphis, TN. One package they sent back to the company because they can't find me. The others took weeks to get...I am telling the truth here. Have actually stood in the yard and waived at the driver as he passed by and he still could not find my house. If a company ships via DHL, I just frankly do not order from them.

John Ummel · Post by **John Ummel** » 28 Oct 2005 6:06 am

I work in the warranty/repair dept for an electronic manufacturer. We receive power inverters being returned for service. The biggest single issue is PROPER PACKAGING. People will send a 60-100 lb unit across the country in a cardboard box just big enough to hold the item and are shocked when it gets damaged in shipping. Just as bad, is shipping a heavy item packed in "peanuts"...they are WORTHLESS...the heavy item shifts to the edge of the box and gets damaged. The way to go is BUILDERS FOAM, solid sheets of foam, the thicker the better, on all sides of the item. When properly packaged it is very rare to see a unit damaged.
my $.02
Johnny

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 28 Oct 2005 8:32 am

To Tommy Mc, I don't entirely agree with what you say. In a commercial transaction where someone is shipping me something and I am being charged for the shipping it seems to me that three parties ought to have equal involvement: the vendor, the courrier and the purchaser who is ultimately paying for the service. The way I see it, if I am paying then the vendor is acting as more as a proxy. The shipping may be charged to his account but it is clear that I am the one paying in the end. After all, my name is on the waybill and I have access to the tracking information. So if I have been acknowledged as a party to the contract to that extent, then why am I excluded from the appeals process if there is a problem with the shipment? For example, if I have to rely on a vendor/shipper to go after a refund on my behalf, then what proof do I have that he ever actually did so? And if the courrier awards a refund to the shipper, what is to prevent the shipper from simply keeping the refund for himself? How would I know, I'm out of the loop. I should add that I do not suspect any such thing in this particular instance but in general you can see that there is a problem with the process. I'm sure the policy involved here is not exclusive to UPS but it doesn't seem right to me.[This message was edited by Bill Miller on 28 October 2005 at 09:34 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Miller on 28 October 2005 at 09:35 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Oct 2005 9:43 am

Bill, it's simple -

You have no contract with the carrier. The shipper does. A third party has no direct say or influence in a dispute.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Oct 2005 10:17 am

Bill, it's called proof of delivery.

The contract is between the shipper and the carrier..end of story.

Your involvement is to maintain the damaged package and goods for Inspection only.

IF the goods never arrive then the shipper has no proof of delivery and is obligated to refund.

You paid for shipping , but you didn't pay the carrier, your receipt is with the shipper.

all this being said, it's not a problem. If you are doing business with a reputable person there will be no issues.

This is how millions of packages are shipped weekly...

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 28 Oct 2005 10:25 am

I recieved a steel earlier this year that was shipped UPS and the seller paid the extra 20 bucks for special care. When it arrived at my home, the unboxed case was smashed beyond use, many of the strings on the guitar were broken. Fortunately, I couldn'd find anything else wrong with it, but the guitar was actually exposed!

Now this didn't suprise me because I put my truck on with UPS a couple of years for the Christmas season, running out of the Chicago hub. I stood in the terminal and watched packages jam up on conveyors and fall to the floor from at least 25 feet, while administraive personel and laborers alike ignored the problem.

In all fairness, they did send a check for the full price of a new guitar case, but I felt like I had to undergo a deposition in order to get the money from them.

Al Brisco · Post by **Al Brisco** » 31 Oct 2005 6:35 pm

I am the dealer in question with Bill Miller's UPS claim, & am waiting for my next UPS Invoice on which UPS have assured me they will be deducting Bill's refund, & I will in turn send it to Bill.

I suppose I could have sent Bill his refund before I received it from UPS, & may have done so if it had been a guitar sale, however this was a repair situation.

As Bill correctly stated, I have used UPS almost exclusively for North American guitar & amp shipments, without any problems so far...touch wood, whereas one of my suppliers insists on using Fed-Ex, who never get the importing brokerage paperwork correct....Go figure.

Even though UPS did mess up this shipping incident, & will attempt to remember in the future when a hand-off to a local courier is in the works, to use the post office, etc.
Trying to keep it together....
Al Brisco
Steel Guitars of Canada