C6 Copedant advice for push/pull

Bob Mayer · Post by **Bob Mayer** » 2 Aug 2018 4:16 pm

Hi Steelers: My friend and teacher Larry Behm suggested that I post for some C6help....I'm relatively new to this neck....He is knowledgeable on c6, of course, but doesn't really play standards, so some chords, like half diminished, 7b5, other altered dominant stuff isn't stuff he uses a lot.....those of you who know Larry know his mettle......get it?

I'm interested in the lush sound c6 offers, and would like to play standards, Swing,among other things....I like Texas Swing, but it's not my main interest....

I have a 67 Emmons D10 Push pull......My pedal 4 raises 3/7 a half tone, Pedals 5,6, and 7 are standard; RKR lowers C to B.....Pedal 8 and RKL are OPEN.......

I'm interested in advice as to what to do with my open pedal/lever......but more importantly, where I should place them......It seems to me that the ability to lower AND raise 4/8 would be good......Maybe I should changed P4, although it seems okay to me...But I'm so new to this new universe that I just don't know....Also given the limitations as to playability of PushPulls......

I initially just said, "lets lower 4/8 with pedal 8, and raise 4/8 with the lever", but Larry said, "Hold on, there's more to it.....what you do with 8 could act in conjunction with 7, and maybe you should change your pedal 4, to do more in conjunction with pedal 5,and some things are best on a lever......And Push/Pulls can get sloppy when you ask certain things of them"....But they sure sound good.....It's hard to get your head around C6, eh?

Also, if I do things to 4/8, should I just do 4 only....?? It seems to me some folks do one, some both.....

If anyone has any suggestions as to what and where, and what chord colors will be at my disposal.....I would be in your debt....
Many thanks,
Bob Mayer
Talent, OR USA

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Aug 2018 5:40 pm

P8 should be the standard P8.
P4, if you want full lush chords, should raise at least 8 a whole tone instead of a half. You can probably, if you don't want to send it to Lynn for two or three more knees (probably not a bad idea), make it raise 4 a half and 8 a whole.
Your other knee should then either raise 3 (and possibly 7) to C# or lower 4 to About (my steel teacher recommended lowering 8 to G on the same lever that dropped 4 a half).

I had decommissioned my P4 with its whole tone raise approximately two months before hearing some of the Texas swing guys squeeze the 8tg string from a 6th to a Maj7 in the bass; I immediately recognized what he was doing, and regretted my move. It's a SWEET sound.

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 2 Aug 2018 7:02 pm

As Lane said, make 8 the standard 8 changes. There's a lot more than Night Life there if you want to play lush chords. Raise 4&8 a half on RKL and see Lynn to at least lower 4&8 a half on LRK. For me (others may disagree) for "lush chords" the next most important change is lowering 5 a whole tone for a very useful Maj 7 most often on a LKV.

I'll take these over raising the C's a half. But it's just an opinion. The high 6 inversion is more important if your focus was western swing, but you said lush chords.

My opinions.... Certainly others will disagree.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 2 Aug 2018 7:55 pm

Don't forget, his steel is a push-pull Emmons. Certain changes are not easy to make work on such a guitar.

For instance, lowering the 5th string from G to F means you have to then use a half tone tuner on Pedal 5 which only lowers that string to F#/Gb. That means you have a half tone tuner that is buried under a bunch of other rods and is pretty hard to get at for tuning.

Using a half tone tuner on a raise is much easier than on a lower.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Aug 2018 8:11 pm

Or put the half-tone tuner on the raise side of P5, so that P5 lowers to F like the knee, but at the end of the travel, it takes back the slack that allows it to go to F, and the half-tone tuner lets you tune the F#.

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 3 Aug 2018 8:42 am

I know zero about push/pull but I do know something about jazz chords..

Agree w Bill Cunningham 100% - lower string 5 a whole tone

Agree w Lane 100% - standard P4 is great, many great players do something else there, like Doug Jernigan and (I believe) Buck Reid. I couldn’t live without it

Ped 8 - standard, don’t mess with perfection BUT -

Something Reece Anderson did on his 6th tunings was tune both string 1 and the bottom string (10 or 12) to a D. This gives you incredible access to some beautiful suspended chords, very modern, pedals up, plus, in conjunction with the lower Bill suggested, provides a wonderful sounding min7 chord with a very cool half step interval in the middle.

What you lose - the low drop to boo-wah w P8, you’d just lower string 10 a half step. To me, this is not much of a loss.

Keep the A to Bb raise, on a knee maybe, because in cunjunction with P6, you a terrific min11 chord at the 1, one of the most useful changes in the universe, if want bigger lusher chords.

Again - I know nothing about push pulls so maybe none of this works - cool chords though

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Aug 2018 8:55 am

Come to think of it, I bet Christopher might be willing to give you some time and pointers, since you're in the same town.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Aug 2018 9:03 am

Unfortunatley Portland to Talent is about 280mi.
Bob! I thought we lost ya!
Welcome back!
We have a Steel Jam coming up in Sept (hint)

Can you list the song titles you are looking to play on C6th?

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 3 Aug 2018 9:08 am

Oh yeah - and lower your A’s a half step - crucial

If you ever want to talk, send me a note and I’d be happy to chat

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 3 Aug 2018 10:26 am

If you had to choose, would you lower 5 a whole tone or lower 4 a half tone?

Assume you have the standard floor pedals, plus knees that raise and lower the 3rd a half tone, and raise the 4th a half tone. You only get one more lever. What's most useful?

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 3 Aug 2018 10:51 am

Oh man - I’d hate to have to make that choice... I use them both, quite a lot, but if I had to choose I’d probably take the 4th string lower.

I should say though that I also wouldn’t play a 10 string C6, so my opinions on most pedal choices are suspect at best...

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 3 Aug 2018 11:47 am

Lowering the 4th is the answer I was hoping for because it doesn't involve having to use a half tone tuner.

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 3 Aug 2018 7:02 pm

Paul Sutherland wrote:Lowering the 4th is the answer I was hoping for because it doesn't involve having to use a half tone tuner.

The solution is to put the antique instrument on display in a plexiglass case under LED lights and get a modern instrument with fewer limitations.

Just kidding Paul but I couldn't resist!! And Christopher probably would add, one with 12 strings!

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 3 Aug 2018 7:22 pm

Yes!!!!! 12 strings but no more please, for me....

Hahahah

I’m grateful for the quad raise triple lower, and all those levers and stuff. After owning mine since February of 2011, I am going to add one more lever - my first staggered one, to raise the Bb to B, which most C6 guys already have. (C to C#)

It’s time to have Mitchell go over it and do all the little things my lack of mechanical skill prevents me from doing. Sigh

Bob Mayer · Post by **Bob Mayer** » 4 Aug 2018 7:09 am

Thank you guys so much! As I said, i'm still sorting out the mysteries of C6.....and E9, for that matter

Really appreciate the input.....Pete, I'll give you a call soon to catch up!

I just might get another PSG, but I really like the sound of that ole Emmons, and it belonged to my teacher, Larry, which gives me a karmic lift.....its got Behm mojo in it........ha!

Anyone have anything else to say?.....I'd love to hear from Jim Cohen, but I don't know how to contact him.....his 2-5-1 You Tube video is really helpful....and Paul, I love your you tube stuff.....thanks so much!

Bob

Bob Mayer · Post by **Bob Mayer** » 4 Aug 2018 7:14 am

Thanks also to Bill and Zane....Christopher, I just might give you a shout!
Bob

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 4 Aug 2018 7:42 am

Bob, once you get the copedent settled, please post it in this thread. I'm curious to see what you end up with.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 4 Aug 2018 9:49 am

"Easy Wind" is mostly P8 to P5 on the 6th tuning!

Bob Mayer · Post by **Bob Mayer** » 4 Aug 2018 4:29 pm

Gem'mun

As to Bill's suggestion about getting a more modern guitar....What would that be?
I'm sure EVERYONE has an opinion bout this...

I'll keep the Emmons, for sure......I imagine I'll play e9 on this. I'm in love with the tone of this 67 p/p....should I get a single10, or double as a second axe.....What would be the setup....how many floor pedals and how many knee levers...

Is there a guitar that is a no-brainer for me? Don't want to say money is no object, but this is something that I really like.....and I would value!

Thanks, all!!
Bob

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 4 Aug 2018 6:56 pm

If money is no object, both the Sierra and MSA are damn fine guitars, and at the top end of the price range.
Probably the least expensive new guitar will be Mitsuo's Excel. And I'd be ecstatic to own any of the three.
If you value 'pretty' highly, you can't beat Williams, Desert Rose and Show Pro.

Literally, with the exception of the brand we're not allowed to discuss, there's no brand I'd pass on.

But I'd get a D-10, or that wacky 12 string E9/C6 Excel. It's NOT a uni. You throw the lever and it goes from Extended E9th to a 12 string C6th

Bob Mayer · Post by **Bob Mayer** » 5 Aug 2018 6:52 am

Yes, Aaron....I will do so....this will be a lengthy process, though!
i am considering another guitar in addition to the Emmons.....
Bob

Aaron Johnson · Post by **Aaron Johnson** » 5 Aug 2018 7:26 am

I’m in the same boat Bob. I have an old Emmons S10 E9 and it works for me. I’m considering an S10/12 C6 too. Unfortunately I’m not good enough on E9 yet to justify the purchase yet.

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 5 Aug 2018 1:27 pm

Bob Mayer wrote:Gem'mun

As to Bill's suggestion about getting a more modern guitar....What would that be?
I'm sure EVERYONE has an opinion bout this...

Bob,

My comment was (a probably bad) attempt at humor. There is nothing wrong with a PP guitar and they have a very unique tone. Given where you it seems you are with your steel guitar journey, you have more important things to focus on that additional gear/instruments, IMO.

I don't think there is a bad guitar on the market today out of any of the major manufacturers. I personally play Mullen G2's.

Bob Mayer · Post by **Bob Mayer** » 5 Aug 2018 3:17 pm

thank you, Bill

I'm coming to the same conclusion......I LOVE the sound of my 67 PP.....My teacher, Larry, sez, I need to stop worrying about all this and get in the seat....good advice!

He says that I can usually duplicate anything that a fully loaded c6 might have.....almost!

Still.....its fun to think about a guitar that might have.....more!

But,,,,Is it worth 5 or 6K to me to find out? Hmmm.....I dunno.....maybe

I need to get better to know for sure.

Your comment was clearly respectful and in jest.........I thought it was funny!
All the best, Bob

Bob Mayer · Post by **Bob Mayer** » 8 Aug 2018 11:36 am

Thanks to all for your kind comments....

I decided to take Bill C's advice and get a more modern guitar....I found an incredible guitar in Portland...its a Mullen G2 8 X TEN (!!) D10 in birdseye maple lacquer body....It has more changes than I could possible imagine.....As we say in the Northwest, it was very spendy....but no one lives forever.....

I believe that I now have the best of both worlds: A cadillac modern guitar, and a vintage great......Now to the seat.....

Thanks again to all.....
Kindest regards,
Bob Mayer