Are The Nuances Of F/X Units Lost On The Bandstand?

[Lee Baucum]

Reverb, for example.

Some people just swap out the spring reverb unit on their amp, looking for longer tails, or shorter tails.

There are some wonderful reverb units out there with all kinds of parameters that can be adjusted. I used to use a Lexicon rack mount unit that had wonderful sounding reverbs. I had a whole bunch of pre-sets to use for different songs. Turn those knobs, get everything just so. Save those settings.

Other reverb units simply have a knob to turn up or turn down.

Some units let you select spring, hall, plate, room, etc.

I wonder, though, about what happens once you get on stage with 3, 4, 5 other musicians.

What happens to all those subtle nuances that we've programmed into our f/x units? The room is bigger. The room is smaller. So many people. Where is everybody? Wait, we have to play outside?

Once the sound levels go up and all the music and the noise is bouncing around the room, is/was all that programming for naught? Can you really hear the difference between that spring reverb setting vs the plate reverb setting?

I'm not just wondering about reverb units. Many delay units have a wide variety of parameters that can be adjusted, beyond just the decay time and the number of repeats.

Some reverb and delay units allow us to adjust the tone of the reflected notes. Can people in the audience or out on the dance floor hear these nuances? Can we hear them with that loud crash cymbal ringing in our ears and the bass vibrating the entire stage?

I know all those parameters are great for the folks in the studios. I just wonder about the bandstand pickers. Are the subtleties and nuances lost on a loud bandstand?

[Rick Abbott]

It seems the louder the stage is, fewer effects helps hold the line on intelligibility and cutting power. Tight delay seems better to me than reverb in higher-volume situations. JMHO

[Len Amaral]

Lee, great question and food for thought. When we are tweaking a Reverb on the effects unit, we are doing it in our own quiet setting to get it just right. Type of delay like Plate, time, tone of Reverb, predelay, etc. Depending on the band you are playing with, your settings can go unnoticed especially if the guitar player next to you has wet ringing Reverb. If the lead vocals has a dripping Reverb and delay it’s even worse. A VFW or Moose Hall with hard walls, high ceiling and terrible acoustics compounds the situation.

[Georg Sørtun]

Most "room emulation" effects (reverb, delay etc.) tend to muddy up the sound coming from the stage, as they all to easily end up competing with a real room which they are not tuned in to. So, usually, the less such effects used on stage the better if one wants any tonal qualities to be heard.

The best "effect" on almost any stage, is the equivalent of the old, adjustable, "rumble and scratch" filters, to reduce the amount of sound/noise being produced and bounced around from outside an instrument's normal tone range. Well-adjusted low-cut makes any instrument – especially PSGs – sound clearer/cleaner, and saves energy in whatever amp/PA system that is used without losing volume, while high-cut saves people's ears so maybe they can hear a few more of our intended nuances in tone.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I've recently returned to ensemble playing after a pretty long hiatus. I am rediscovering what I already knew but had forgotten---settings that I spent lots of time fine tuning that worked in my practice space are all out the window.
In a jangly 'Americana Band' setting with sustaining string sounds around me, I am drying up my sound considerably. The nuance and sweet spots and all of spacial fx? Really not relevant to the realities of this loud band context.
I might feel differently if we were working with in-ears and had top notch sound reinforcement but that's not my reality.
And of course recording is a whole other thing.
Still, though, bad or poorly adjusted sound in my practice studio is too distracting to not do something about and spending energy in pursuit of 'nuance' can't be helped.

[Jack Stoner]

A lot of the effects are lost past the players ears. e.g. "stereo" setups - the audience can't tell the difference between a single speaker or multiple speakers or "stereo" setups.

I've seen reports of multiple mic's on a guitar in a recording studio (one talked about 6 mics) different locations relative to the speaker(s), different types of mics, etc. They are all tracked on separate tracks but in the end mixed down to mostly one track.

[Michael Butler]

every situation is different and that require tweaking until you like it.

play music!

[Godfrey Arthur]

I wonder, though, about what happens once you get on stage with 3, 4, 5 other musicians.

Those settings are only good for your benefit on the stage at your amp. The rest of the band members don't/won't hear what you hear and much less the audience.

Not unless you take your guitar out into the audience and line check it from the audience's POV will you notice what your settings are doing and then it will change for every song. Which is why effects settings for many bands these days are handled by a separate technician on stage who pushes the effects buttons.

But basically it's a crap shoot, the audience will not hear much other than the notes you play. And if it's stereo effects, forget it. The only ones in the audience who might hear it are those who are in the power alley between the FOH speakers. Again the guys on stage are basically flying blind not unless you're all wearing IEM's and you have a dedicated monitor mixer who has dialed in everyone's instruments with effects sends. Then again not every musician wants what the other guy on stage is hearing in his IEM's.

Recording your gigs from out in front in the audience will be a better gauge of how your effects are cutting through or not and that is another ball of wax to have to suss.

[Jack Hanson]

With both digital stompbox reverbs that I have used, the reverb effect seems to disappear in the cymbal wash. Since I began using an outboard analog reverb unit with an actual spring tank, that is no longer an issue.

So, yes, in my opinion, the nuances of some pedals do indeed disappear on the bandstand.

[George Redmon]

Played with a group recently, where the ummm...sound guy, went out in the audience area with his phone. Apparently he had some kind of app or two on it. Had us all do a short song, while he played with his phone. To me, by the time he got through messin' with the board, everything was one big roar anyways. You can pull your hair out worrying about gitting your sound right where ya want it, just to have some kid, who thinks he's a sound engineer for Capitol Sound Studios in Burbank California, trash it anyways. So sit your amp, effects, and goodies up the way you like them...and as Michael Butler just said.... "Play Music"

[Jack Stanton]

IMHO, no. I've heard Buddy Emmons play many times, sometimes with only the reverb of a Fender twin, and several times with his early 80's toy box ( the big and small version), with a rack Ibanez delay, with a Boss DD-3 pedal, and I could hear the difference, everytime. Of course, that was Buddy Emmons, and I was paying attention. Is the nuance lost on most of the general public? Of course, but they aren't listening anyway,

[Fred Treece]

I agree with Georg. If your tone doesn’t have its own little place in the mix, fx aren’t going to make it either. Midrange eq is the key, but a little delay can beef up the tone without any tonal adjustment on the unit, and make the reverb more uhh, effective.

It gets back to playing with people who know how to play together - knowing and caring about each other’s sound and style.

Of course you are going to hear the nuance in Famous Picker X’s sound. Everybody else in the band is there to set him up for you to be able to hear it. If you are Tex Nobody sitting in with The Dive Bar Band...plug in, tune up, and hang on.

[b0b]

Just got a Mel9. I'm sure it will turn some heads when I start using it on the bandstand. People notice when I switch on the organ effect, too.

I also use echo as a noticeable effect. Short delay for wetness on slow songs, long slapback for jump/rock-a-billy. Otherwise it's turned off. Reverb is constant: low for indoors, higher outdoors. It's just part of the instrument sound to me.

Subtleties are lost in the mix in live performance. I know that Paul Franklin has a dynamite high-end effects box, but I didn't hear any effects at all when I saw him on tour with Vince Gill.

[Fred Treece]

I know that Paul Franklin has a dynamite high-end effects box, but I didn't hear any effects at all when I saw him on tour with Vince Gill.

Except for the Paul Franklin effect, eh b0b?

[Richard Sinkler]

Just got a Mel9. I'm sure it will turn some heads when I start using it on the bandstand. People notice when I switch on the organ effect, too.

I also use echo as a noticeable effect. Short delay for wetness on slow songs, long slapback for jump/rock-a-billy. Otherwise it's turned off. Reverb is constant: low for indoors, higher outdoors. It's just part of the instrument sound to me.

Subtleties are lost in the mix in live performance. I know that Paul Franklin has a dynamite high-end effects box, but I didn't hear any effects at all when I saw him on tour with Vince Gill.

I use an Mel9 also. Great for strings. I use the strings setting, and it sounds great. I've used the Cello setting to fake fiddle parts in songs like Amarillo by morning. I've also used the Saxophone setting for some rock stuff like "Keep Your Hands To Yourself" and "Stinky Cadillac". A little iffy, but it is nice change from a distorted steel, or straight steel. I want to try a Synth9. As bands are starting to add more and more classic rock and that new country crap, I think a synthesizer would be fun.

I use mostly verb and just started a little delay. I make sure you can't hear a slapback note. I don't like to hear two notes for every note I pick, like some do.

[Dan Robinson]

A little reverb and delay. As the night wears on and stage volume grows (as it always does) 'verb and delay muddy the sound instead of making it sweet. Have to reduce effects.

Even with IEMs and my own mix, the subtleties get lost.
"Tone-shaping" becomes less important than maintaining prominence in the mix. If I can hear WHAT I'm doing, and stay on point (play in the right key) then it's all good.

There must be some part-timers out there with a six piece band where "string separation" still matters. I guess they're not from around here.

[Greg Lambert]

depends on the drummer.. The slow stuff enables the quality of the reverb/delay to be heard. Forget it with the faster songs. I turn off the reverb on these songs , my amp is usually spitting fire at this point.

[Donny Hinson]

...I wonder, though, about what happens once you get on stage with 3, 4, 5 other musicians.

What happens to all those subtle nuances that we've programmed into our f/x units? The room is bigger. The room is smaller. So many people. Where is everybody? Wait, we have to play outside?

Simple answer is, it varies.

[Steve Sycamore]

But isn't it most important that the musician hears and feels the sound that is right for him or her? That's what drives your inspiration and confidence and your playing will reflect that.

Interesting about the MEL09. Can it produce a good enough sound to be able to cover anything by The Moody Blues, King Crimson or Genesis?

[Fred Treece]

But isn't it most important that the musician hears and feels the sound that is right for him or her? That's what drives your inspiration and confidence and your playing will reflect that.

It's a good point, and one that gets back to the OP. I don’t know if it’s more important for the musician rather than the audience to hear and feel the tonal nuance of the music being played, but if he doesn’t, both will be the lesser for it.

[John De Maille]

First off, you have to be happy with what's coming out of your amp. If not, you might as well go home and play in your bedroom.
As to the bandstand, your electronic nuances can be heard on stage, but, probably not appreciated by your bandmates. Most of them are into their own sounds and not paying attention to you..... much!
The crowd, people, listeners, dancers, who, are near the stage might pick up the differences, but, won't understand any subtle effects. The people in the back or off to the side will hardly hear a difference, unless you're playing loud enough to shatter their eardrums.
And, of course, the soumdman! His job is to mix the sound and if he doesn't know or care about it you'll get lost in the mix so to say.
I would say, just worry about how you sound to yourself and be happy. There are too many variances to worry about and they are out of your control.
I've used stomp boxes and rack effects and they're basically to make me happy with my sound. All the effects, that, you could possibly use can only really be effective under a controlled situation such as a recording studio or a small enclosed listening venue.
However, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't experiment with toys in order to enjoy yourself.

[Donny Hinson]

Yeah, it would be all rainbows and unicorns if we were always 100% happy with our sound. But in the real world, that doesn't happen. Crowd noise, obstinate band members, venue acoustics, and clueless sound guys all enter the equation from time to time. IMHO, what's most important isn't how you feel about your sound, but how everyone else feels about it. Look, circumstances occasionally dictate that you sacrifice something you like for the sake of the gig and the audience. And if you remember who you're playing for and who's paying you, and give them what they want, you'll get a lot more jobs. Good musicians don't sulk and go home if things don't sound perfect, they make the best of what they have and say "Thanks for asking me to play".

[b0b]

But isn't it most important that the musician hears and feels the sound that is right for him or her? That's what drives your inspiration and confidence and your playing will reflect that.

Interesting about the MEL09. Can it produce a good enough sound to be able to cover anything by The Moody Blues, King Crimson or Genesis?

I doubt it. Replication of tape loops is obviously different from actual tapes, and a steel guitar amp isn't going to sound like an Abbey Road recording. I'm going to debut it on stage Friday with The Rhythm Rangers anyway.

I've never heard a real Mellotron in person. My sister recently acquired one, though - I hope to play with it a bit next time I'm in South Carolina. I keep waiting to hear it on a Wasted Wine track, but so far they haven't released anything with it.

[John De Maille]

Donny,
I totally disagree with you about playing with what you've got and hoping, that, you're pleasing a crowd or other bandstand members. If you can't please yourself with what you've got, then, find something that works and go with it. And, as for playing to make the band sound better as a whole, you can't tell that unless you can get feedback from someone out front. Or, having the whole band monitored in your ears while your playing. Most bandstands, whether on the floor or raised up are too large to get an overall sound of the band. On a small stage, where your on top of each other, sound cohesiveness is easier to control and adjust accordingly. The band I play with now plays large stage and outside venues. Several of them are controlled by a soumdman, the rest are a musical crapshoot. The only way to balance the later is by a personal sound check, either singly or en masse. If I'm not happy with the sound coming out of my rig surrounding me, I'm damn well going to fimd out why and how to fix it. Ive adjisted my amp many times in order to achieve my sound. The one I'm used to. If there ever comes a time, when, I can't achieve it , I'll go home and pack it up. Again, I have to make myself happy with my sound. Good misiciams know how to adjust their electronics to achieve the sound, that, they want. I've never seen or heard a pro steel player sound bad. They know how to adjust what they have. What I was saying was, that, if you can't or don't know how to adjust, go home and learn how to do it.
Boy, is his post getting off track!
However, electronic nuances are not lost to you or those close by you on stage.

[Tony Prior]

interesting stuff. I've come full circle from decades of doing this or doing that. I adjust my tones with a simple slap delay and some reverb. If it sounds good behind me I end it right there. I am not losing sleep over how it sounds at the back of the room where the sound is trying to maneuver thru 100 or more bodies !