If you lower your E's on the right knee, let me ask you...

[Greg Gefell]

where do you prefer the other basic changes and why? (2,9 lower) and 1,2,7 raises (or 6 lower)

I've looked at the possible combinations gained and lost by doing both but wondering what others have found.

My other changes are pretty standard - Raise E's on LKL, PF change on pedal 0 and then standard ABC pedals.

[Mike Holder]

I think since you split the knee levers it's in your best interest to keep the 2/9 change on the opposite leg of the lever lowering the E's...lots of licks available with that.

[Clark Doughty]

Here's John McClung's copedent with E's on the right. I really like this setup....
https://b0b.com/tunings/mcclung.htm

[Brint Hannay]

I don't consider the 1&2 raises a basic change--I don't have it or find myself wanting it--but I do greatly value the 6th string whole step lower, and have it on LKR for the ergonomics of combining it with the E lowers on RKL.

I have no idea what licks may be available combining the E lowers with 2&9 lowers; I've always had 2&9 changes on RKR. I can say I've never found myself wishing I could make that combination. But a lot of the vocabulary we develop is because of simple experimentation--"What can I get if I press these two at the same time?"--so what we have on the guitar channels our thinking on the instrument as much as the other way around.

[Jeff Harbour]

On my GFI, I lower my E's on RKR, and moved the 2 & 9 lower to LKR. My reasoning is physical playability. I find it much easier to raise or lower a whole step using an inward-moving lever. So, as a result my half-step pulls are all on outward levers. I don't know if that is because of the specific mechanics of the GFI mechanisms... or if it's simply a comfort thing based on how my knees operate. But, it works for me. There was a small learning curve to adapt, but not too bad.

[Jim Cooley]

My Es are both on the right knee. I lower the Es on RKL and raise on RKR. My first steel was an MSA Classic. Several people have told me that many 1970s and '80s MSAs were set up that way. LKR raises 1 and 2 and lowers 6. I lower 2 and 9 on LKL, and am thinking about adding the 7th string raise to that lever. I lower 5 and 10 on LKV.

[Jeff Harbour]

I have no idea what licks may be available combining the E lowers with 2&9 lowers...

I've adopted a chromatic 'banjo roll' run from Buck Reid's Alabama Jubilee solo that requires the E lowers used with the 2nd string to D. It wouldn't surprise me if Buck himself had gotten the lick from his close friend Jimmy Crawford, it's along his picking style. So, for me those two levers must be on opposite knees.

[Brint Hannay]

Of course, Crawford tuned his 2nd string to D, as do I, so he only needed the E lowers for that banjo roll.

[Donny Hinson]

To each his own. I do the "E" raise and lower on the right, leaving the left knee for all other changes. (This avoids those contortions I see some other players doing.) Some have a problem doing a smooth "E" transition from the lower to raise, or vice-versa with this setup, but I do not. Because I have 5 floor pedals working on E9th, this setup is even more advantageous for me.

[Fred Justice]

Greg I lower my E's on the RKL to see what I'm doing with the rest of the levers, see the link to my set up below.
http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/copedent.html

[Pete Burak]

I have my E-lowers on right knee right ala Jeff Newman S12U.
I have tried the string 6 full tone drop on RKL2, and LKR, and like LKR better.

From Jeffs Universal Book (sorry about the blurry pic):

[Dave Mudgett]

I definitely put E=>F on LKL and E=>Eb on RKL. I would ideally like the string 2/9 lowers opposite the E-lower lever. However for me, it's more important that the string 5/10 B=>Bb lower and the string 6 G#=>F# lower (split with B-pedal for G) be opposite the E-lower, and I put them on LKV and LKR, respectively. I use these changes a lot, especially with the E-lower.

So I have the 2/9 lowers on RKR. This is, in fact, the only disadvantage I've found with putting the E raise and lower on opposite knees. I do have a steel with a second LKL, so I suppose I could move things around a bit to get all those changes opposite the E-lower. But I haven't found that compelling enough to put 2/9 lower in an awkward spot like LKL2 or LKV.

[Bob Carlucci]

E lower 1/2= RKR
E raise 1/2= RKL
2&9 lower = LKR
1st st. raise =LKL
If you have a vertical - LKV.. lower B's


standard MSA knee setup for many years.


Reece got it right the first time, and WHY it never became standard I'll never know..
Almost any MSA I have seen the past few decades has been changed to E's on the left, but I KNOW they weren't shipped to stores that way... bob

[Brint Hannay]

So I have the 2/9 lowers on RKR. This is, in fact, the only disadvantage I've found with putting the E raise and lower on opposite knees.

Jeff H. mentioned a banjo-style roll, but what else would you use the E lower + 2/9 lower combination for if you could?

[John De Maille]

My uni tuning is very similar to Jeff Newman's tuning.
However, I have a LKR lever that raises strings 1, F# to G# and string 2, D# to E
And, it lowers string 6, G# to F#.

[Dave Mudgett]

So I have the 2/9 lowers on RKR. This is, in fact, the only disadvantage I've found with putting the E raise and lower on opposite knees.

Jeff H. mentioned a banjo-style roll, but what else would you use the E lower + 2/9 lower combination for if you could?

I said everything I could reasonably say about that on this recent thread: viewtopic.php?p=2722305

Oh, there is one other thing. If you add the string 7 F#=>G# raise to the 2/9 lower (which I have on my G2 on RKR as I said), it should be noted that this is just Bobbe Seymour's Z-lever - see these threads for reference:

https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/009858.html
https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/003964.html

To use the Z-lever effectively, it really must be on the opposite knee from the E-lower, as Bobbe pointed out. The baseline for playing out of that setup: Z-lever + AB down gives a nice fat Amaj7 - 3rd at the 9th (and 10th) string. Eliminate string 7 F#=>G#, it's A6, and IMO the same caveat applies - to really use it fully for an alt-6th tuning setup, it should be opposite the E-lower, as I stated in my reply to Paul. It's nice to be able to toggle between 6th and maj7 by simply tightening or loosening the 7th string nylon tuner.

I'll eventually figure out some reasonable way to get the E-lower to oppose 2/9 lower with my preferred RKL E-lower / LKL E-raise setup. But I would lose too much putting either B=>Bb or G#=>F# on the same knee as the E-lower. For me, anyway.

[Brint Hannay]

So in discussing combining the E lowers with 2/9 lowers, the idea is lowering 2 only a half step, to D? (as is done with Bobbe's Z lever) In that case, for me to try out this combination, given that I tune my 2nd string to D (and raise to D# on RKR and lower to C# on LKV), I would only have to change a lever on the left knee (I have 5) to 7 raise to G# + 9 lower to C#. Or would I still be missing something?

[Chuck Lemasters]

I lower 4&8 on RKL because that is how my first guitars were set up and I think I would have a hard time changing to LKR. Raising 4&8 on LKL in combination with the A pedal or A&B combination(Emmons pedals) seems natural. Moving from raised E to lowered E, or vice versa, seems smoother for me with the changes on opposite knees. Lowering G# and raising the high F# a whole tone requires more travel or more pressure, and I would rather not have that change on the same leg as my volume pedal, hence lowered 2&9 are on RKR. There are some advantages and disadvantages to any setup, it's a matter of choice.

[Greg Gefell]

Lots of good ideas here. I think I'll start by just swapping my inside knees and see how that feels.

[Jeremy Threlfall]

RKR -> Lowers 4 & 8
LKR -> Lowers 2 & 9
LKV -V Raises 1 & 2

[Bengt Erlandsen]

The 2&9 lower to C# is highly useful in combination with the 4&8 E-Eb and also with the 4&8 E-F which for me means 4-8 lower and raise need be on the same knee. Moving both knees together engage my 2-9 lower and 4-8 lower. They have the longest movement of the knee levers and makes sense to be arranged that way.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

[Paddy Long]

I lower E's with RKL -- lower 2nd and 9th RKR, and raise 1, 2 and 7 with LKR

[Greg Gefell]

Seems like if you lower the E’s on the right you have to choose if you wanna lower 2 and 9 on the left or lower 6 on the left. You can’t have both.

[Larry Bressington]

I think it’s half a dozen of one and six of the other, Which ever you choose will have is opportunities and it setbacks, maybe you can’t play a particular lick Without this option, but then you wont be able to play another lick without the other option, just work around it. Many players have E’s on seperate knees, I like the RKL to lower and LKL to raise, I also lower 2@9 on RKR but I suppose I don’t play any licks with two and nine lowered and 4@8 at the same time.

I think it’s style influenced also, over time you fall into what works after experimenting abit.

[Steve Leal]

Hi Greg,

I have always had my E lowers and E raises on separate knees and have tried almost every combination on the other levers:

I find it most playable to:
RKR ++1, +2, +7
RKL -4, -8
LKR --2, -9
LKV -5, -10
LKL +4, +8
(note: I am lefty so I actually have these all opposite)

I like raising string 7 a half tone opposite leg of raising Es. If I am starting from A pedal and F position (strings 4,5,6), and I slide down two frets with 7 raised (strings 4,5,7)...you get a nice movement to Brumley style 9th chord.

I also like to raise 7 while A and B pedals are down to get 7th chord, then add E to F raise to augment cord, then move up a fret with A pedal and E to F only for resolve to four chord.

I also find it more useful lowering 9 while lowering Es on opposite legs, rather than lowering 9 while raising Es. Allows you to hit some of those Tommy White runs playing the top strings.

I like to raise string 7 a half step to get that cool Buddy Emmons lick starting at say 10'th fret open position.
*hit string 8
*move down to 9th fret while raising 7 while pressing B pedal and raising 4&8 and hit string 7 (letting 8 ring)
*move down to 8th fret and hit string 6 (letting 8&7 ring),
*move down to 7th fret and hit string 5 (letting 8&7&6 ring)
*slide down to 6th fret keeping string 7 raised and pressing A&B pedal hitting strings 4&5&6&7
*move down to 4th fret keeping string 7 raised and pressing A&B pedal hitting strings 4&5&6&7
*then augmenting by raising string 4&8

I feel that this setup is more useful than having the 2 and 9 lowers on RKR and 1,2,7 raise on LKR.

Thanks, Stephen