b7 chord, E9 neck

[Jeffrey McFadden]

I play a lot of blues, and I use a lot of 7th chords. The "built-in" 7th on the E9 neck is string 9, but that doesn't suit my style. I like a higher pitched b7 tone, for the nastier, bluesier sound.

I can't find any way to get one with my copedant. It may be there - I'm still exploring, and don't have it down yet. I've looked a lot, though, and I can't find it.

Is there any reasonably common change to a Day type copedant that gives a b7 on a higher tone, preferably to the "root" (3-5-6 grab) chord?

Here's what I'm building off of. If I had to, I'd trade major 7ths for blues 7ths.

Any better suggestions?

[Tom Lulias]

B pedal with e's lowered.

[Abe Levy]

There is a V7 chord at root position with B pedal and Es lowered. (Can also be had by using 2nd string if you don’t want to bother lowering 4) Also a I7 chord if you lower your 2nd string a 1/2. You can sub a diminished chord for the V7 at the root by playing strings 1,2,3 with the B pedal down.

[b0b]

The F lever (your LKR) makes a 7th chord. It's 3 frets up from your home position (E7 is at the 3rd fret). The root tone, if you want it, is on the 9th string lowered which should be on your RKR instead of the 7th string raise.

That 7th string raise, by the way, makes a 7th chord with pedals down.

[Paul Sutherland]

At the open position, lower the second string a half tone to get a high D.

From the no pedals position, back the bar down two frets and play strings 3, 4, & 5 with the A pedal.

From the no pedals position, go up three frets on strings 3, 4 & 5 with the lever raising the 4th a half tone.

From the pedals down position, go down two frets on strings 3, 4 & 5 with the B pedal and the lever lowering 4 a half tone.

[Ken Metcalf]

On and off the A pedal with this A/F combo

The F lever (your LKR) makes a 7th chord. It's 3 frets up from your home position (E7 is at the 3rd fret). The root tone, if you want it, is on the 9th string lowered which should be on your RKR instead of the 7th string raise.

That 7th string raise, by the way, makes a 7th chord with pedals down.

[richard burton]

For a bit of a bluesy B7, try strings 4 and 5 (with the A pedal pressed, you call it pedal 3 on your chart) at the 5th fret, then slide back to the 4th fret, at the same time releasing the A pedal and activating the knee lever that raises the 4th string a semitone

[b0b]

Your RKR, as it is now, gives you all of the notes of a seventh chord with AB pedals down. It's an A7 chord on the open strings.

[Jeffrey McFadden]

B pedal with e's lowered.

Yes, but with no 1 tone (E) there is less tension. It implies a 7th but it's not all there. Can't do the licks I do without the root.

[Jeffrey McFadden]

OK, bunch of useful info here. I need to dig into this quite a bit more. Thanks all.

[Jim Robbins]

B pedal with e's lowered.

Yes, but with no 1 tone (E) there is less tension. It implies a 7th but it's not all there. Can't do the licks I do without the root.

Open position Emmons B pedal (i.e. the pedal raising G# to A which on a Day set up I guess would be called the A pedal) with E's lowered gives you a B7. The root is on the 10th and 5th string. What you are missing on the standard grip strings (3,4,5,6,8,10) is the 5th of the chord which is available on strings 1 and 7.

[Paul Sutherland]

Jim: No need to change the names commonly assigned to the three common floor pedals just because it's the Day set-up. The B pedal is actually in the exact same position, whether using the Emmons set-up or the Day set-up. It's just the A and C pedals that get flipped. Changing the name serves no purpose and creates confusion.

[Jim Robbins]

Thanks, Paul. That makes sense. As you can tell, I'm not well acquainted with the Day set up.

[Jeffrey McFadden]

Jim: No need to change the names commonly assigned to the three common floor pedals just because it's the Day set-up. The B pedal is actually in the exact same position, whether using the Emmons set-up or the Day set-up. It's just the A and C pedals that get flipped. Changing the name serves no purpose and creates confusion.

I just think "C,B,A." Got that from somebody here. It's still the A pedal, it's just in a different spot.

[Jeffrey McFadden]

...

Is there any reasonably common change to a Day type copedant that gives a b7 on a higher tone, preferably to the "root" (3-5-6 grab) chord?...

I didn't mean what I wrote here. I meant 8-6-5 grab.
My mind takes breaks.

[Andy DePaule]

The tension in say an E7th chord does not come so much from the root note. It is from the relation of the G#, B & D (3rd, 5th & Dominant 7th) that are each three half tones apart, A diminished chord...

[Larry Behm]

The bass covers the root note enough times that you do not need to worry about it. If you play two strings or one string your sound will be cleaner than if you try to grab a fist full. Think about horn players, one note does the job for them and 2 notes on violin.

[Jim Kennedy]

Tom Bradshaw's chord book shows all the grips for all comon/useful chord types available on an e9 3 and 4. If the answer to your question is not in there, there is no answer. It is free to download from his website. Great resource, not overly burdened with theory, but does go over the baiscs of scales an chord theory.

[Jeffrey McFadden]

Tom Bradshaw's chord book shows all the grips for all comon/useful chord types available on an e9 3 and 4. If the answer to your question is not in there, there is no answer. It is free to download from his website. Great resource, not overly burdened with theory, but does go over the baiscs of scales an chord theory.

Cool. I sent what he requires to get the link & will be downloading it as soon as the link comes. Thanks!

[Bengt Erlandsen]

Maybe you can find some useful Dom7 voicings in this old post.

https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000674.html

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

[Franklin]

Jerry,

Here is the way I view the E9th as a blues based tuning....

In the pedals down position I move back two frets and lower 4 and 8 ..1/2 tone with the A and B pedals activated. At that position every string except the 9th string establishes a Dominant 9th sound which is my favorite choice for a dominant chord. In that position there are a lot of string choices to build blues melodies.

Also from the pedals down position I often move up 3 frets with A and B pedals down for tons of riffs. Same thing every string except the 9th string works at that fret as a scale and if you omit the 2nd string you get the blues scale and the pentatonic notes which is the primary voice I prefer playing blues lines.....

Try this out to hear that blues sound.

N=No Pedal...... I will list A & B symbols next to the string.

Key of C7th
At the 6th Fret

3B 3N 1 4 5A 5 6B 7 8 10A

In between 5A and 5 you can use a half A pedal to get the blues scale.
And you can add the 2nd string into that scale for a jazzy touch to the blues

Paul Franklin

[Jeffrey McFadden]

Jerry,

Here is the way I view the E9th as a blues based tuning....

In the pedals down position I move back two frets and lower 4 and 8 ..1/2 tone with the A and B pedals activated. At that position every string except the 9th string establishes a Dominant 9th sound which is my favorite choice for a dominant chord. In that position there are a lot of string choices to build blues melodies.

Also from the pedals down position I often move up 3 frets with A and B pedals down for tons of riffs. Same thing every string except the 9th string works at that fret as a scale and if you omit the 2nd string you get the blues scale and the pentatonic notes which is the primary voice I prefer playing blues lines.....

Try this out to hear that blues sound.

N=No Pedal...... I will list A & B symbols next to the string.

Key of C7th
At the 6th Fret

3B 3N 1 4 5A 5 6B 7 8 10A

In between 5A and 5 you can use a half A pedal to get the blues scale.
And you can add the 2nd string into that scale for a jazzy touch to the blues

Paul Franklin

Thank you. In fact, thank you doesn't express it.

I'd been stumbling into the A&B at the home fret plus two frets up, but I hadn't happened on the two frets down. I'm just taking a break from practicing, change my view for a minute. When I go back I'll work on that.

I can barely see through the crack in my ignorance and I can already see how indescribably brilliant the design and function of pedal steel with E9. I bet there's somebody out there playing classical music on one. I've never had a better tool to make music with.

[Franklin]

Jeffrey,

You're welcome...I am having a ball teaching these days......Sorry about addressing you as Jerry in the last post......

You are right about the tunings! Both the C6th and E9th are wide open for exploring all types of music once the mind is freed from the conventional ways of viewing the tunings. Welcome to the world of steel experimentation! I can tell you firsthand its so much fun...I've spent my whole musical life on that journey.

Here's a clip of one of my newest video additions to the course which teaches how to craft rock solos. Notice this is just A&B pedals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFWkdQe ... 3M19lsAfrK

Paul Franklin

[Jeffrey McFadden]

Jeffrey,

You're welcome...I am having a ball teaching these days......Sorry about addressing you as Jerry in the last post......

You are right about the tunings! Both the C6th and E9th are wide open for exploring all types of music once the mind is freed from the conventional ways of viewing the tunings. Welcome to the world of steel experimentation! I can tell you firsthand its so much fun...I've spent my whole musical life on that journey.

Here's a clip of one of my newest video additions to the course which teaches how to craft rock solos. Notice this is just A&B pedals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFWkdQe ... 3M19lsAfrK

Paul Franklin

Wo Buddy. We calls that Rock and Roll. I loved it.

I loved the way you ran scalewise down the whole neck with one phrase. I pursued that sort of approach on my lap steel, although never with that refinement. As I'm starting to learn the foundations of PSG / E9 - scales across one fret with pedals and lever, major and minor chord locations relative to a root fret / key, finger shapes / grabs, and where the confounded pedals and knee levers are hiding, I can see the road to there. Still pretty far, but... visible.

And people have been calling me Jerry all my life. It's less than the least of my worries.

[Franklin]

I find this very interesting....
Blues, Country, Bluegrass, and Rock are created from the exact same info.
What separates them is attitude and rhythmic phrasing.
Take Care...