Learning jazz on the C neck trick

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 23 Jul 2005 9:08 pm

I've been having alot of fun with this one:

I take any standard jazz tune ( this week its Moon River) and I play nothing but the 3rd and 7th of each chord. It ends up being a pile 4ths and 5ths. I play them every where I can find them on the neck. After I'm comfortable playing them in at least 3 different ways I start adding the root notes (and sometimes the flat 5 equivalent). After I'm comfortable with the triads I start adding the melody notes to the top of the chord.

I write the names of the 3rds and 7ths next to the chord symbol on the chart (C major=E and B).

After I start getting a tune together I play along in BIAB and start memorizing it and screwing around with scales.

I started doing this as a way of playing jazz on an 8 string Rickenbacher a while back and I've found that it really helps open up the way I look at the C neck on my D10.

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Bob
My Website

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Jul 2005 8:12 am

This is a terrific approach you've laid out. I would also point out to whoever reads this that when figuring out the fret positions for the 7th chords based on the 3rd and 7th note as Bob has described, that ALL main types of 7th chords be included i.e. Cmaj7, Cm7, C7, Cdim7, and Cm7b5. Excellent and valuable post, IMO.

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Jeff's Jazz

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 25 Jul 2005 10:03 am

Great stuff. I just bought a book from Sher Music Co. called "Forward Motion" by Hal Galper. He was a pianist for Cannonball Adderley, Phil Woods, John Scofield, Chet Baker, ETC. One of the first things he suggests is figuring out the chord voicing for every song you know as a start to using melody guidetones for successful solos. Basically lining up the strongest notes with the strongest beats in each measure. If you do what you guys are suggesting you can bet you will know the song pretty well.

In this "forware motion" idea he talks about instead of thinking of the "one" as the start of each phrase, instead thinking of it as the last beat of the previous measure. Interesting concept that goes all the way back to Bach. There is an interactive web site that you can hear all of the ideas in the book played. He starts in a place where the last note of (for instance) an arpegio ends on the first beat of the next measure. We do it all the time by starting a grace note on "four and" then propelled into the first beat of the next measure. He just makes you aware of it and has exercises where you start a lot earlier. Cool stuff[This message was edited by W Franco on 25 July 2005 at 11:05 AM.][This message was edited by W Franco on 25 July 2005 at 11:10 AM.][This message was edited by W Franco on 25 July 2005 at 11:13 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Jul 2005 8:02 pm

Any of you guys know of a good basic study of replacement chords ? Something that applies them to specific standards.

I'm getting gigs with jazz guys and on stage I feel like I'm visiting France and all I know how to do ask where the bathrooom is and smile allot. I need some more vocabulary !

thanks, Bob

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 26 Jul 2005 2:16 am

Good thread - good direction

Heck Bob, i'm livin' in France & i'm at a loss fer words too
give me a call if yer down my way

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 26 Jul 2005 2:47 am

This is a similar technique that I've been using suggested by the James Aebersold series. I can't speak highly enough of this set of play alongs. Using the first volume in this series has really helped me begin to understand the extended 12 string C6 tuning on my MSA lap and I'm starting to expand that to understanding the Universal 12 as well.

I've played many different types of music in my life, but the one type of music that remains a passion is Jazz. Most types of music I play I find more fun to play than to listen to. For instance, I play Bluegrass on my Dobro, and I enjoy playing it when I can, but I find it difficult to listen to for any extended time.

Jazz on the other hand has always been endlessly fascinating to me. I've never had the knowledge to master it but feel now that I have been working through this series, that there is hope. I firmly believe that Pedal and Lap steel could be a great jazz instrument in its own right.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 26 Jul 2005 3:09 am

I find it really useful to concentrate on playing just two notes at a time, and let the two lines follow the notes that define the chords. Sometimes it's thirds and sevenths, sometimes a root or fifth or extended tone will work in there. The lines can move parallel, contrary or up and down, and slants are invaluable (C6th). I'm trying to get to something that sounds slinkier than lurching from chord to chord, cramming in every extension possible.

I can spend hours lost in two-note movement; I admire people who can apply pianistic thinking to guitars (six-string too), but to me that can sort of mask the steel's strength of slipping and sliding.
[This message was edited by David Mason on 26 July 2005 at 04:13 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 26 Jul 2005 6:43 am

Here is an arrangement that I do of Fly Me To The Moon with a lot of subs and motion. Obviously, whether it is a basis for soloing or for accompanying a singer will make a difference in how this harmony is applied; also, a player would add or subtract chords from it depending on his sensibilties. And the voicings, placement of roots, extensions and alterations will play a huge part in how it works in the song. I'm not including the normal changes. They can be found in any fake book.

<pre>Am7-----E7b9----Am7----A7b9-----Dm7
Fly-----Me------To-----The----- Moon
.
Em7------Am7-----D9
And------Let----Me
.
Dm7-------G7-------------Gm7-C7-C#m7b5-F#7b9
Play--a---mong----The----Stars
.
Fmaj7---Em7-----Dm7------Cmaj7
Let-----Me------See------What
.
Bm7b5------------F7---------
Spring----Is----Like-------On
.
Fm7-------Bb7-----------Am7
Jup--it---er----And-----Mars</pre>

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Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 26 July 2005 at 07:55 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 26 Jul 2005 7:08 am

As far as getting information on subjects such as chord substitution, an Internet search will yield a number of web-sites with concepts and specific examples. Also, I would pick up several fake books from DIFFERENT authors which have the feature of showing the standard changes and some commonly used subs printed on top of the standard changes. IMO, this is very useful because it shows real world application. The standards tend to repeat themselves and if a player sees the conext of a particular sub, they could then apply it to other songs with similar contexts. Just for example, take the song Stella By Starlight. That song is in the key of Bb and the original first chords were Bb/Bbdim/Cm7. The melody emphasizes the A (natural 7) note. Eventually, the first two chords were replaced by Em7b5/A7b9. That progression exists in other standards and the same substitution will sometimes work.

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Jeff's Jazz

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 26 Jul 2005 8:33 am

Stella has been a very tough song on me. I've worked for months on it. I've been working through the chord progression with scales. For the II-V's with the altered minor Em7b5 A7 for instance I'm using a D harmonic minor. I believe a more common way it that particular case is going up a minor third and playing a "jazz minor" over those type of changes. Haven't done much of that yet but it sounds good.I think now I'll go through the chords like was suggested in this post and figure out all the firsts and thirds in each chord then add from there.

Thanks Jeff for the chord arrangment on Fly me to the Moon. That is one of my favorites I play every week.I'm going to copy and paste that one. I will put it to good use very soon.[This message was edited by W Franco on 26 July 2005 at 09:35 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 27 Jul 2005 4:49 am

I included that arrangement just as an example of some harmony and chord sub ideas. As far as the Stella progression, D harmonic minor is the usual scale for playing over Em7b5/A7b9. Going up a minor 3rd would mean play G jazz minor (a.k.a melodic minor). That scale doesn't have the C# of the A7. Just something to be aware of. I always thought D harmonic minor was the first scale of choice when playing over Em7b7/A7b9. We're only talking scales of course. The actual soloing takes way more into account. Also, you can play a Bb jazz minor over the A7b9, which would reharmonize the A7b9 with a number of alterations - C for a #9, Eb/D# for a #11, F for a b13 while keeping the important C#,G,A, and Bb notes in tact. That would sound pretty hip.

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Jeff's Jazz[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 27 July 2005 at 06:05 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 27 Jul 2005 5:18 am

Here's a book I picked up. It had a lot of good ideas in it.
http://www.elderly.com/books/items/49-240005.htm

I have a lot of links stored on my compouter for web-sites on jazz harmony. Here are a couple. You have to search around them but they all have useful info on chord subs, IMO.

http://guitar-masters.com/Subst/
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/substitutions.html
http://www.thereelscore.com/PortfolioStuff/PDFFiles/QuickJazzTheoryRefFinal.pdf

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Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 27 July 2005 at 06:23 AM.]

Bruno Rasmussen · Post by **Bruno Rasmussen** » 29 Jul 2005 11:01 pm

Danny Gatton shows this 3rd and 7th approach in the beginning of his video ”Strictly Rhythm”.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Jul 2005 5:26 am

...I play nothing but the 3rd and 7th of each chord. It ends up being a pile 4ths and 5ths.

I'm missing something here, and don't understand how you play 3rds and 7ths, and get 4ths and 5ths.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 30 Jul 2005 5:54 am

Donny! 3rds and 7ths (both being major or minor) yield 5ths! (See "Two or Three notes go into a bar...")

Richard Nelson · Post by **Richard Nelson** » 30 Jul 2005 8:32 am

Great subject men. The 3rds and7ths idea is great practice. Its recomended is most jazz books . It really defines the chord and gives your solos direction, if thats what you want. Your harmonisation is great Jeff . Keep up the good work .

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 31 Jul 2005 6:07 am

Thanks Richard. I wish there was a little more action on this thread. Maybe Bob should start a new thread called "Learning TO TUNE jazz on the C neck trick". Put the word tune or tuning in a thread title guarantess an automatic 50 posts.

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Jeff's Jazz

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 31 Jul 2005 7:08 am

The fun begins when you start thinking about what to add above the 3rd and 7th (if anything- sometimes comping minimally is better for the soloist, but if you are playing your own improvisation w/ chords a la Curly/Maurice etc. or playing solo)... with the tritone substitution idea, say E and Bb (3 and b7) for your C7 and a D on top is 9...the "sub V" of C7 is Gb7 (E is now b7 and Bb is now 3)- the D becomes the #5 of Gb7.

So you see, you know more chords than you think you know, if you know what I mean

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 31 Jul 2005 8:28 am

Nice thread.

Here's something that I lifted from a Mandolin Cafe thread about Tiny Moore......

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I spent some time with Tiny in the 1980s--
He didn't really play straight rhythm on the mandolin,
just an occasional 2 string 3rd/7ths line.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 31 Jul 2005 10:17 am

The whole point IMO of the idea of finding all your 3rd's and 7th's for EACH type of seventh chord (M7,m7, etc.) is that the jazz standards are all charted in seventh chords and those two notes generally define a seventh chord. Once you find all the fret positions and string combos for those two notes for a particular seventh chord, THEN you can look for everything else that fret position offers. What low roots (not necessarily the tonic) are available. What diatonic melody notes? And finally, what extensions/alterations? What you are doing is building a melody/harmony toolkit with many available options that can be used any time you see a particular type of seventh chord on a jazz chart. The tri-tone sub is only one, albeit very important one, of those available options.

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Jeff's Jazz

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 6 Aug 2005 12:10 pm

Because of this post I have been methotically practicing the chords to all the songs I play and where the 3rds and 7ths are with BIAB tracks. Nice stuff! Also those 2 note sure give your playing a good feel when interchanging the chord with a scale starting on those notes.
Jeff, obviously you're right about the jazz minor up a half step from the root of a seventh chord. When I'm jamming on a song I like to do that once.. Maybe even live there in a song like Blue Seven that has all seventh chords.[This message was edited by W Franco on 06 August 2005 at 01:19 PM.]

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 7 Aug 2005 7:15 am

OK, I'm confused as usual. Are we talking here of 7th's or M7's? I always thought a 7th meant dom. 7 (7th tone flatted). The E and B are the 3rd and M7 of C. Are you saying all the chords can be faked by two tones of M7's?

Please, someone 'splain. The circle of 4th's/5th's works for chord substitution, but it is dom. 7's, isn't it? Like F#7 for C7? It also works for complex chords having those two notes?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Aug 2005 7:42 am

Bob, I think they mean whatever 7th the chord calls for. If the chord is dominant, you'd use the flatted 7th. If the chord is a major 7th, you'd use the major 7th.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 7 Aug 2005 9:02 am

Let me try to explain what I ment. What I was specifically talking about at the end of my post was particular to a song like Blue Seven. It has all Dom. 7th chords in the whole song. Its kinda a jazz version of Route 66. One of the things I like to do with the song is for the I7 chord start out a little blues thing and kinda slip into the sharp 1 jazz minor. Aghnist C, a C# JM has Db(b9),Eb(b3),Gb(#11),Ab(b13),Bb((b7)C(root). I wouldn't suggest doing it at the local Eagles club with a country band. I bet Jeff Lambert could really expand on this.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Aug 2005 10:59 am

Bob,
Bob Hoffnar's original post referred to E and B, the 3rd and natural 7th of a C major 7th (Cmaj7) chord. We also got to discussing ways to find chord substitutions and eventually got into Stella Bt Starlight and the progression Em7b5/A7b9. The discussion went to the A7b9, which is a dominant 7th chord which as you said, has a flatted 7th note, and that is where we have been - on dominant 7th chords. Anything so far in this thread related to using the jazz minor scale is referring to playing it over the dominant 7th chord 1/2 step up and has NOTHING to do with the original post that discussed the C major 7th chord.

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Jeff's Jazz