Tampered" Tuning

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 30 Jul 2005 8:41 pm

For many years now, I've been using the term "tampered" when referring to the way many folks tune their guitars. It's somewhere between ET and JI. I've noticed that now more and more Forumites are beginning to use the term.

The first time I heard this term I thought it was great and have been using it ever since. For those of you who still have your copies of the old Steel Guitar World Magazine, go back to Issue #14, from April of 1994. On page 10 there is an article by Helmut Gragger, from Austria. In the section on tuning he talks about the merits of tuning ET or "straight to 440 on the tuner". He goes on to say, "Devotees of the 'plus minus so-and-so from 440 method' will have their hair raised in horror now. In misunderstanding (or, in fact, ignorance) of the theory they call their method "tempered', but, to have this crystal clear, it can be called 'tampered' at best. It is an inbetween mixture of both worlds that obeys to no other proven law than fiddling, getting away with blue murder."

I think "blue murder" is a bit harsh, but I do believe that "tampered" tuning is a great way to describe the method by which many of us tune our guitars.

Lee, from South Texas

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 31 Jul 2005 12:50 am

Anybody got a fresh stick?

EJL

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 31 Jul 2005 2:23 am

Lee, I thought you coined the term; but it doesn't matter, as you've done a service by re-framing the language for a purpose.

I doubt that a true ET or JI exists on steel. Or anywhere else. David Doggett's take is that everybody starts with one or the other and tampers with it.
I've tampered with the equal temperament on pianos, so it's really not quite equal anymore, but to me, better (favors strong 5ths; musicians like that). When it comes to thirds, what's a tuppence among friends?

No fresh stick here, but everybody's looking for a fresh schtick.
Nothing new under the sun, just refinement.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 31 July 2005 at 03:25 AM.]

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 31 Jul 2005 4:09 am

GOOD ONE, Eric!

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 31 Jul 2005 4:29 am

I started messing around with b0b's "Meantone Temperament Tuning" for C6th a little while back: http://b0b.com/infoedu/WellTemperedC6th.html
It worked fine on the open strings, but when I started pressing pedals and knees, all heck broke loose. If you P5&6, and knee your A's to Ab's, you get two F#'s at -10 cents, and two adjacent Ab's at +15 cents. Eeew! I beeped b0b and he said, you need G#'s instead. Fine, three G#'s at -15 cents, two F#'s at -10, and one honkin' Eb at +12.5 cents. Eeew!

I can't reveal my secret solution without the danger of setting off YET ANOTHER FRIGGING TUNING ARGUMENT, but suffice it to say I have modified the "Meantone Temperament Tuning" into the "Really, Really Foul-Tempered Tuning."

(Eric - why would you want to roast a hornet's nest? They're not like marshmallows, you know.)[This message was edited by David Mason on 31 July 2005 at 05:33 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 31 Jul 2005 5:36 am

I wanted to add, but refrained:
there are many historic tunings.
Meantone is a transition between JI and ET, for keyboards, but some piano tuners can still tune things like Pythagorean comma, syntonic comma, 1/4 syntonic comma, etc.
Commas are scisms, unequal gaps between notes that will rectify the scale into an octave, but not with equally spaced notes.

These are not to be confused with steel guitar tunings that can be played in all keys.
The current path suggests a compromise between ET and JI. Once you get into arcane methods, you can drive yourself bonkers. No matter what the instrument.

Be careful how you stir the hornets.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 31 Jul 2005 6:03 am

Eric, a dead horse would have been more appropriate.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 31 Jul 2005 6:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"He who knows does not speak,
He who speaks does not know,
And I go round in circles" - George Harrison (Circles)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do like the term, 'Tampered'.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 31 Jul 2005 6:34 am

Peter asked me to post these links about the 31-tone system. http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/huygens.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/english/instrum.html#fokker
[This message was edited by Nic du Toit on 31 July 2005 at 07:37 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 31 Jul 2005 7:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"He who knows does not speak,
He who speaks does not know." --Lao Tzu<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But after reading Huygens, I guess I don't know.
Boy, that Fokker really started something!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 Jul 2005 7:14 am

Is that the face of the Virgin Mary I see in that hornet's nest?????

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Jul 2005 7:58 am

Technically speaking, any tuning that isn't JI is tempered. ET is equally tempered - all of the half tones are 100 cents. But there are as many forms of temperament as there are stars in the sky.

I always figured that "tampered" was just "tempered" with a southern accent.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 31 Jul 2005 8:07 am

b0b

That would be teeyumperd.

Three syllables.

Lee

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 31 Jul 2005 9:58 am

This may have already been asked and answered, but, is there a black and white definition of JI? If so, what is it?

I realize that I could do a search, but it's not that big of a deal to me. Thanks to anyone who answers without saying, "do a search."

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 31 July 2005 at 10:59 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Jul 2005 11:14 am

http://www.justintonation.net http://www.justintonation.net/whatisji.html

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 31 Jul 2005 1:32 pm

Well, trying to avoid that hornet's nest: I think it un-just to say that any tuning that is not JI is tempered, unless you're including bad-tempered.
There are many useless temperaments--well, let's say obsoltete--but they follow guidelines. It is possible to tune an instrument badly, and that doesn't qualify as tempered.

That is why I find tampered a very useful term when discussing the tuning of pedal steel, a unique case among instruments.

To reiterate David's point, and make it a question, is there anyone who tunes strictly JI or ET, without tampering?

That said, I think I'll follow Joey, George Harrison, and Lao Tzu's observation, and bow out, as I don't know, but I'm learning.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 31 July 2005 at 02:35 PM.]

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 31 Jul 2005 1:33 pm

b0b -- thanks. Now I remember that I asked this same question before and you gave me the same link. Sheesh, my memory is really getting bad. Thanks again.

Ray Uhl · Post by **Ray Uhl** » 31 Jul 2005 9:42 pm

I can appreciate all the musical and mathmaticial knowledge that enters the tuning debates. However, I have seen (unfortunately), club players who are under the influence, sit down to a steel, chime tune, and play the ever loving &^%$ out it!! I don't know what the tuner would show, but WOW!!, I wouldn't care. IMHO, it's still in the hands and ears.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 Jul 2005 11:00 pm

Well, I have also been using the term "tampered" to mean somewhere between JI and ET. The only problems are that it is really a slang term, and it doesn't imply any particular place between JI and ET. There probably is no single spot between JI and ET, because the unique cabinet drop of each instrument is part of the equation. Also, some people prefer a little closer to JI, and others prefer a little closer to ET. So tampered tunings are plural and personal.

The use of chimes or harmonics to tune a steel seems to be just a part of tuning by ear. Ear tuning is the traditional way to tune a steel guitar, and derives from the time before there were handheld chromatic tuners. Ear tuning is probably usually close to JI. But many ear tuners have recognized problems with pure JI (although they may not have called it that) and so have tempered somewhere away from pure JI, but only they know where. So just watching someone tune by ear, with or without harmonics, does not tell one exactly how they are tuning. Some people can even tune almost pure ET by ear. Some of the very top steelers tune by ear (probably close to JI), and other very top steelers tune almost pure ET. So just watching how someone tunes tells one nothing about how good they will play.

I am curious about how people use harmonics to tune a steel. If anyone understands how harmonics help, please explain.

Paul Brainard · Post by **Paul Brainard** » 31 Jul 2005 11:51 pm

31 Tones, at last the steel guitar world embraces microtonality. . . Whenever anyone gives me a funny look on the bandstand I always say "hey, did you know I have my own pateneted system of intonation?"

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Aug 2005 5:12 am

There ya go.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 1 Aug 2005 6:54 am

If it feels good, do it.

If it sounds good, play it.

Helmut Gragger · Post by **Helmut Gragger** » 16 May 2012 4:39 am

Bump. Many a year later I joined this forum and Lee spotted me hanging around. Remarkable memory for names.

He addressed me over the term and I could not even remember having coined it, but its true.

When I had started fooling with steel tuning there was no, I mean NO help in sight, at least herabouts (Austria). Today you consult the web, but back then, - nothing.

For the lapsteel, harmonics tuning worked, but failed terribly for the pedal steel as soon as the thirds kicked in.

I came across the steel magazine Scotty had issued way back then; handcopied pages.

Jim Molberg from NZ had written some articles about the ET tuning (extra-terrestrial?) and there were quite a few beautiful stamped letters sent both ways as a result. That´s how I became a convert to the ET tuning.

I have meanwhile looked into other tuning schemes and come to the conclusion: even the ET tuning is not the final answer. You hear the wolves howling badly on some instances. Considering additional mechanical problems you are liable to encounter on a pedal steel, tuning to anything but ET is a fight against windmills. And after all, while a good player will mostly have an in-tune instrument, having the latter alone will not make you a good player. I rather enjoy my playing and adhere to a less than perfect tuning scheme until better advise.

So welcome to the world of plurality.

-helmut

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 10 Feb 2013 3:38 pm

"Tampered" tuning?

That must be tuning used once a month.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 10 Feb 2013 3:47 pm

8 year old thread?