How to use Nashville Notation for this minor song

[Wolfgang Mrazek]

First of all ... I wish y'all A Happy New Year!

I started working with Nashville Notation about a year ago and still learning. So far, all songs have been in Major key but this one now is in Minor key...

It's "Boat on the river" by Styx. It has rather nice chord changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Qs8-BkiLw


So I'm asking, does this make sense what I have written using Nashville Notation? Or would you rather go for the chords on songs like this? See below. The song is in Gm that has the relative key Bb. So I used Bb.



Here is the song with chords:




Here is the song with my Nashville Notation:




Regards,
Wolfgang

[Bill C. Buntin]

In this case (Gm) is now the one chord. For which you apply the rules for that mode.

So it would be Gm = 1-, Cm = 4-, A = 2, F = 7b etc etc.

[Skip Edwards]

Certain tunes are better written out in letters...this may be one of them.
It doesn't really go into a major section where the tonal relationship between the 1 and the 6m is apparent.
In this instance the minor sounds as the tonic, so my advice would be to just keep this one charted in letters.

[Herb Steiner]

Certain tunes are better written out in letters...this may be one of them.
It doesn't really go into a major section where the tonal relationship between the 1 and the 6m is apparent.
In this instance the minor sounds as the tonic, so my advice would be to just keep this one charted in letters.

What Skip said...

I asked Roy Rosetta which he preferred when getting charts for steel shows, and he generally preferred number charts, but when I brought up "All the Things You Are," which modulates keys about every 4 measures or so, he said "letters, definitely."

[ajm]

So maybe an unintended lesson from this topic is: If you get called to do a session, make sure you have a pen/pencil/Sharpie with you.

If you are given a chart written in one format, and you prefer it in the other format, you can quickly mark it up.

However, if they give you the chart written in "letter" format, and they decide to change keys, it could get messy. In that case, you'd be better off with the "number" format. That way you wouldn't need to mark it up.

[Skip Edwards]

make sure you have a pen/pencil/Sharpie with you.

Reminds me of a story...
One time Tommy Tedesco - uber famous Wrecking Crew session guitarist for those who don't know - was asked for advice by a newbie player, hoping to break into the session scene.

His pearl of wisdom advice was... "bring a pencil"

[Herb Steiner]

make sure you have a pen/pencil/Sharpie with you.

Reminds me of a story...
One time Tommy Tedesco - uber famous Wrecking Crew session guitarist for those who don't know - was asked for advice by a newbie player, hoping to break into the session scene.

His pearl of wisdom advice was... "bring a pencil"

The Tedesco story is legendary, and though TT probably meant as a joke I'll bet it was only partially tongue-in-cheek.

Dig it: If you were showing up for a construction project and didn't bring a hammer and tool belt and had to borrow one from the foreman, it would be very obvious to the contractor that you didn't completely have your sh!t together as a carpenter.

So yes, not having a pencil and embarrassingly have to borrow one can be a serious faux pas sometimes, especially if the contractor and/or session leader see it. Don't ask me how I know? When I was in my early 20's around 68-69 and trying to get session work in LA, through music biz friendships I got on two or three "real" sessions with guys like Tedesco, Dennis Budimir, Jim Gordon, Larry Knechtel, Earl Palmer, Max Bennett... that ilk. I was totally green and made some serious session mistakes that ended my playing with guys of that caliber, because I frankly was not ready at all to be working in that level of professionalism. Not bringing a notebook and pencil was actually one of my goofs, though not at a date that Tedesco was on.

[Wolfgang Mrazek]

Tried it out today at rehearsal with the band. I preferred the "letters" although I am more used to "numbers". But now the singer wanted to change the key to Em...

[Charlie McDonald]

That's the beauty of numbers.
I think it translates better if the song is noted in 1m, rather than as a relative minor

[Bryan Daste]

I would write this in numbers as you did, with the Gm as the 6-. But since the chords aren't necessarily super intuitive, I might pencil in a couple of clues along the way - for instance, the fourth chord is the 7 major, which is not very common, so I might just pencil a little "A" right over that. There are a few more candidates. Then if the key does get changed, you only have to change your little clues rather than rewrite everything.

[Michael Maddex]

If I were to use the numbers, I would notate it in Gm, that is 'Gm = 1m' and so on as noted above. To notate a song in a Minor Key with numbers from a Major Scale (Gm = 6m) just doesn't make sense to me.

[Brint Hannay]

Personally, I have a hard time thinking of a song as "in Bb" when there is not a single Bb chord in it. It strikes me as counter-intuitive. The underlying assumption seems to be that there is no such thing as a minor key, which my ears tell me isn't so.

For my own purposes, I would assign numbers in this song relative to Gm being 1m, the tonic.

[Tucker Jackson]

I've done it all three of the ways mentioned depending on which system 'fits' the song best: assuming the key is the relative major and then writing the tone center as 6m, writing it as a 1m, and just skipping numbers altogether. If the song is unusual, I'll write chords and numbers over them.

Check out this prior thread on this topic:

viewtopic.php?t=212215

Charting using the NNS......All numbers are major chords unless notated different, no exceptions.........

If the song is in E minor, most chart riders will use G major as the tonal center for the chart......Making the root chord a 6 minor......

Paul

Chas Williams in his book The Nashville Number System states on page 12
"However, in Nashville, most of the time, for a song in a minor key, the chord chart will be written as if in the relative major key"...

Butch

If you're writing charts that only you see, I think you should use whatever is easiest for you to understand.

[Roger Rettig]

I certainly see the value of the number system and it works best with simple chord structures. I still prefer the actual chord-symbols, though, even if it's a basic tune.

A easy a tune as, say, 'Back Home in Indiana' can be challenging if it's written in 'numbers' - there's that split-second where you're momentarily counting up or down the scale in your head! There's no room for doubt with the proper chord-symbol.

[Fred Treece]

Yes it makes sense. I agree with others who have suggested Gm as the key and the tonic chord.

I worked with a singer who changed keys depending on the weather. Letter charts would have been useless for somebody who was subbing. Made doing background vocals interesting too.

[Brint Hannay]

I asked Roy Rosetta which he preferred when getting charts for steel shows, and he generally preferred number charts, but when I brought up "All the Things You Are," which modulates keys about every 4 measures or so, he said "letters, definitely."

I once amused myself by writing a chart for "All the Things You Are" using Nashville-type numbers, with each new key written above the staff, and chords for the short time in that key numbered for that key. My hat would be off to anyone who could sight-read off that chart.

[Tucker Jackson]

Right. Some songs don't lay as easily in a number system. The right tool for the job, and all that... I use numbers up until it doesn't make sense. I play with too many people who regularly change the key of a song, real-time, 5 seconds before downbeat, so... numbers are my first choice if the structure of the song will allow writing it that way. If not, no big deal. Chords work too.

[Roger Rettig]

Exactly, Brint - that's where the method falls down. It works in theory but.....

[Skip Edwards]

The convenience of using numbers for the sake of the chart is really only a perk of the number system. The real benefit is hearing the changes. There's no need to count up or down scale tones if your ears are trained to hear the numbers.

You could number the Styx song as a 1m, etc, but it's not going to be "ear-intuitive" throughout the body of the tune.

[Franklin]

Wolfgang,
In numbers that song is an easier read as 6m.....You can omit the Gm at the top and just say Bb because the 6m in the chart to a musician seeing the chart for the first time is a Gm... Having two key signatures at the top is an indicater of a modulation.....
Paul Franklin

[Fred Treece]

The End.

[Franklin]

All The Things You Are
Key Ab
6m 2m 5 1

4 7dom 3 3

Key Eb
6m 2m 5 1

4 7dom 3 3

Key G
2m 5 1 1

7m 3 6 6

Key Ab
6m 2m 5 1

4 7b 1 3m/3bm

2m 5 1 3

Wolfgang,

I don't remember seeing anyone raise modulating Key Centers when charting with the number system....Thanks to Brint for raising a good point..Number charts written in single keys when songs are composed in multiple key signatures can be a nightmare to read....

I believe I serve myself best by staying with one system for simplicity of learning....I was never good at switching back and forth between numbers and letters. I see music as intervals (numbers) and since letters require transposing when singers change keys I chose numbers as the easier way for me.

A lot of shortcuts with the number system have evolved over decades....Often on more complicated songs the chordal centers change to keep it simple and easy to read. As I study music writing complicated songs in numbers using modulations helps me see where all the common 2/5/1's are found.
Numbers are the same as letters in this respect...To know the system I had to memorize where all the flats and sharps are located.

Paul

[Wolfgang Mrazek]

Thanks for all your replies, it is a great help for me! As I said, the Nashville number system is new to me and I'm still learning by doing. And reading the posts here, and a good book: "The Nashville Number System" by Chas Williams.

It is such a powerful system. The numbers tell what function the chord have in the song. Arrangements, form, stops, etc. can be written in only one sheet of paper that gives a good overview.

I still haven't convinced the others in my band though, I'm trying...

[Doug Hall]

Which is Better requires answering, For Whom? Best to ask them.

[Fred Treece]

Which is Better requires answering, For Whom? Best to ask them.

It is for players who find it easier to think and sight read in terms of intervals rather than letters of the alphabet. Another off-topic tangential question might be for what song.

Obviously it works great for any tune with diatonic chord changes from start to finish. Things get a little more complicated in a tune like All The Things You Are, or name-your-favorite-harmonic-minor-Brazilian-standard with mile-long chord extensions. Once you have the basic understanding of the system though, it can be extrapolated pretty far out there.