Confessions Of A Former ET Tuner

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Jul 2005 11:52 am

Gene, it all depends on your definition of "in tune" and "out of tune." In classical and academic music it is understood that for any given key, JI is in tune. But it was long ago recognized that fixed pitch keyboards and harps could only play in tune in one key (and actually not all chords even in the one key). Therefore, these instruments are intentionally put slightly out of tune, so that all the intervals are equal, and they can play in any key. For those instruments, ET is in tune. The big debate among guitarists and steel guitarists is because these instruments can be tuned to some extent JI, but for some purposes work better ET. You sort of have to settle on your own answer according to what type of music you play, and how you want to hear it. Simple standard chords can work fine JI, with some tweaking between key changes, and will sound sweeter. But more complicated chords and progressions, especially with mid song modulations to different keys, might require more of an ET approach. Actually, with steel, key modulations are not a problem, because we use the bar as an infinite capo. The problem can arise when changing the root from one string to another. But as I described above, a lot of the problems for standard chords and progressions are solved by the independently tuned pedal and knee lever stops.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 5 Jul 2005 12:39 pm

I wish Frank Zappa were here for this. (Those of you who "get it," feel free to giggle)

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 5 Jul 2005 12:46 pm

I wish Frank Zappa were here for any reason.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Jul 2005 12:51 pm

In my former world of guitar, my band rule was: 1) If we're using meters to tune, we all use te SAME meter (because they vary), and 2) if there's a keyboard in the band, meters are out - tune to the keys.

Buzz Feiten developed an interesting guitar compromise - a tuning system based on not only an intonated bridge but intonated NUT as well as some methodology in the actual "tuning". I don't pretend to understand the physics, but essentially your guitar sounds horribly out of tune using his method until you play with a band, then it seems flawless.

Thanks for the heads up on the terminology. I finally get my steel tonite, so I can now be assured of never knowing if it's in tune or not!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Jul 2005 1:58 pm

Steve and Andy
I can't bring Frank back to a physical existence, but here's the best I can do:
http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/mother.mp3

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Jul 2005 6:58 pm

Well Dave, the ones you missed dealt with it.

I'll cover it yet again and not leave ANYBODY out.

I've tuned STRAIGHT UP as long as I've been playing stringed instruments. That's been about 47 years out of my 52. It includes banjo and 6 string guitar.

Since I've been playing steel, I've tuned it straight up since '77. After about three thousand gigs, I wore out my ProIII. It ended up having cabinet drop, and I somehow managed. I worked all the time, and still do. I get paid for it too. No Panhandling, and no busking.

Now I've got a brand new Marrs Conversion of the Professional I've had for 15 years. It has no measurable cabinet drop.

I am tuning it straight up. I've played enough gigs with it in 6 months to pay for it.

I've been fired before, but not for being out of tune.

I know there are people that are cooler, smarter, more important and probably more charming than I am, and they tune their thirds flat. They tune some things sharp I suppose too.

I don't give a rat's ass who they are or how they tune.

I've heard all kinds of reasons why they do this. If they believe them, they are doing better than me. I'm not the one they need to convince obviously or there wouldn't be as much vehemence as I sense.

Bless their hearts.

I don't even care if the (in my estimation) world's greatest pedal steel guitarist, Buddy Emmons, tunes the same way I do. I didn't even know he did until 13 months ago. Bless his heart.

I will tell you this though.

People that tune ET, I've noticed, tend to shy away from the acrimony, challenges, and wholesale pestration that ET tuners invariably bring down by stating the simple, true, and obvious, by people that detune their guitars to be more in tune.

They often email me telling me that though they agree with me on my specific points as well as my generalizations, but they just don't want the aforementioned.

(The few that I've gotten from newer players thanked me for allaying their confusion from all this high falutin' complexity made it all worth it to me.)

Myself?

I thank god that I'm not in a position where I need to care how much flak I get. In fact, sometimes I like the attention.

Marty might end up getting tired of it, bless his heart, but I won't.

It's only as hard as you make it.

EJL

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 5 Jul 2005 7:06 pm

EW said "I've tuned STRAIGHT UP as long as I've been playing stringed instruments. That's been about 47 years out of my 52. It includes banjo and 6 string guitar.

So how come my favorite guitar players tune straight up on their tuners and their chords sound in tune, but I tune straight up on the steel and the chord is out of tune?? (seriously)

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 5 Jul 2005 7:41 pm

This is a total shoot from the hip answer:

maybe because most 6-stringers tune straight up, your ear (brain) is used to hearing a 6-string tuned straight up.

likewise, (according to some) since most steels you hear are tuned JI (or some form thereof), your ear (brain) is used to hearing a steel tuned JI (or some form thereof).

Thus, if you tune the steel straight up, it won't sound right because your brain is not used to hearing it that way.

Just a guess.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Jul 2005 7:46 pm

That's a fair question John.

I don't know.

Do you check offending notes in chords as you play them?

There are intonation problems in steel guitars that are not dealt with the same way as 6 stringers. A search will yield plenty of info I'm sure.

I have a couple specific notes that I play long and loud against things like vocals and guitar that are slightly out of tune in one of the bands I play with. I play them, hold my bar solid and still and look down at the tuner. They're in. I don't change them. I don't "tone center" on things that are out of tune, I can say it's took a good 15 years to quit doing it. I deal with the offending instrument on an individual basis. It it's a guitar, I ask him or her to bend the neck or find a different position where it isn't bent. Usually with a guitar, it's sharp. Usually with a fiddle or vocalist, it's flat. I dunno why.

"Ear Training" must not consist soley of "practice following things around", or you'll be as out of tune as the vocalist, fiddle, guitar or whatever that you play with. There are instances when this has caused mental instability or insanity. Fair warning.

(If anybody misreads this I offer this little clue: Soley soley soley soley Soley soley soley soley Soley soley soley soley Soley soley soley soley)

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 05 July 2005 at 08:51 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Jul 2005 8:26 pm

Nice appeal to experience and authority Eric, but still no specific examples of grips or inversions that don't work with JI tuning. I don't care how much experience you have, or even Buddy Emmons (I also agree he is the best steeler who ever lived - but his ET tuning is a minority practice among top pro steelers). I'll take the much deeper experience of the world's symphony orchestras, which all play JI and prefer not to play with out-of-tune ET instruments such as pianos (but will suffer them for the occassional piano concerto). I learned about the JI/ET problem in my education as a piano player, long before taking up guitar and steel. But don't take my word for it. Read up on the history of music or ask someone in a music school. When I play a piano, I want it tuned ET - I recognize it as a necessary evil for keyboards and harps. Fortunately, I don't have to tune my steel that way - it is a fretless instrument that can play JI.

John, good question. I too think steel guitar tuned ET (everything straight up to a meter) sounds worse than pianos and regular guitars tuned ET. The best I can come up with to explain this is that: 1) steel has more pronounced overtones, 2) steel naturally sustains longer, especially the overtones, 3) our use of the volume pedal further sustains and may even swell the overtones. Put it all together, and dissonance from the clashing overtones of ET is just more pronounced and irritating on steel. Conversely, the sweet JI chords sound sweeter on steel than on regular guitars. Few of us know what a JI tuned piano sounds like.

Electric guitars can get indefinite sustain with compressors and overdrive, but they mostly do that with single-string notes rather than chords. Steelers play more chords. Also, even though regular guitars may sound okay to you tuned ET. Try tuning one JI and see if it sounds better. For a lot of three and four chord country and rock, you can tune a guitar JI and get along fine. But you may have to tweak the tuning between songs if the key is going to change. Most guitar players I play with do just that, without necessarily knowing what they are doing. They tune straight up to the meter, then they play a chord and tweak. They end up closer to JI than to ET. Just because someone tunes to a meter at some point does not mean they are always tuned ET. I just find that very few guitar players tune every string straight up to a meter and then don't tweak at all by ear.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Jul 2005 9:30 pm

Dear Mr Doggett.

To begin with, name any one, and if you detune your thirds, even 10 cents, they sound like dull, flat, hermaphroditic minor chords to me.

To make them all sound like that would even be a worse transgression to my ears. Even if you had a complex or even a simple way to make them all "match up".

If it were up to me I'd have you detained and made to listen to piano concertos for 15 years. 23/7 (1 hour to play psg)

Second choice would be a way to take the time and work with you do devise a method of compensation, instant single note vibrato or pitch manipulation that would make not only your chords bland and beatless, but your single notes too. I'd be willing to if I thought it would help.

I care that much.

I've spent hours on end. Probably days explaining how I tune and why I tune that way.

To no avail, evidently.

I'd say you've spent a good amount of time trying to tell me how and why I tune that way.

To even less avail, I can assure you.

I can safely tell you that you have reached the point of dimishing returns.

Your latest post?

Buddy Emmons (I also agree he is the best steeler who ever lived - but his ET tuning is a minority practice among top pro steelers). I'll take the much deeper experience of the world's symphony orchestras, which all play JI and prefer not to play with out-of-tune ET instruments such as pianos (but will suffer them for the occassional piano concerto). -DD-.

Of all your over-reaching premises and postulations, this is the king of them. It needs to be framed and sent to the Van Clyburne Hall of Fame.

As far as your advice to John, I can only pray that he doesn't read it for anything more than what it is.

I've sat here for ten minutes trying to put it in a way other than what my prima facie view of it is, but I'm not going to say it. It's just the mental picture I get..

Maybe the guys I have worked with all these years really weren't guitar players. Maybe the instrument I've played for 40 years really isn't a guitar.....

Anyhow.

I wish you well.

You'll come over when you're ready.

We'll welcome you.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 06 July 2005 at 06:29 AM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 5 Jul 2005 10:41 pm

My, my, my, we are getting excercised now, aren't we....

It doesn't matter to me how you tune your guitar if you can't PLAY it in tune.

It doesn't even matter to me how you tune your guitar if you CAN play it in tune.

It REALLY doesn't matter to me how you tune your guitar if you can't carry on a civil conversation with folks who don't do things the same as you.

That being said, I guess it's time to pass the target over to my corner of the table, 'cause here goes:

My dear mr. David Doggett, I have seen many, many wise and insightful posts by you here on the forum, but your study and experience does not always agree with mine and here is a case in point:

I'll take the much deeper experience of the world's symphony orchestras, which all play JI and prefer not to play with out-of-tune ET instruments such as pianos (but will suffer them for the occassional piano concerto).

I don't know what authority you are citing, but having myself played classical music on winds, brass and strings since 1962 and having worked for many years subsequently either as a musician or an audio engineer with some of the world's finest artists, including such classical ensembles as the Boston Pops under John Williams and the Oregon Symphony under James DePriest, Norman Leyden, Carlos Kalmar and several other of the world's finest conductors, I have some meager familiarity with this subject.

All "preferences" aside, in addition to the "occasional" piano concerto, a MAJORITY of symphonic performances include a piano, harp, marimba, xylophone, glockenspiel, chimes and/or other instruments that are tuned of necessity to ET. Every other instrument is inherently incapable of being played in tune without some effort on the part of the person playing it. This includes all your saxophones, Mr. D., as well as all the other woodwinds and all the brass and stringed instruments.

In every single symphonic performance or rehearsal I have ever been party to, the entire ensemble tunes to the oboe's "A" which is generally mighty durn close to 440 Hz. With the exception of the ET instruments already mentioned, it is the performer's responsibility to then play their instrument in tune to the satisfaction of the conductor. I have never ONCE heard a conductor or performer carry on so about "JI versus ET" as folks do here on this forum - you simply play your instrument in tune or you're out the door. RIGHT NOW.

I began playing PSG in 1973. I never had a teacher other than the precious few moments with a very kind and anonymous session player who set it up and showed me how to play a diatonic scale on strings 3 and 5 with the A and B pedals. I didn't own a tuner, so I always tuned by ear from a given note (later there was an old Conn strobe that I took an initial "E" from, along with the rest of the band) and I seemed to get along just fine and no one ever complained that I was out of tune.

In about 1987 I bought my first compact tuner (a little KORG unit that I still use) and, not knowing that I was doing anything wrong, I tuned the entire guitar to it (as close as an old ShoBud can be tuned, anyway, cabinet drop and all), relative to A=440. It sounded absolutely GREAT! Better than it had ever sounded before and better than it ever sounded afterwards when I didn't use it. Due to this encounter, I have chosen to tune in this fashion ever since - it's fast, it's accurate and I don't have to have a quiet room or even make much noise myself to do it.

Due to the realities of physics, most instruments - wind or string-powered - can simply never be tuned so that every single interval sounds exactly perfect on its own - my old Pro I has no compensators and the nylon bridge tuners can't even be fine-tuned exactly as I want - it's a crude system I suppose, and there are several intervals that are clearly not perfectly in tune when played at the open position, but it really doesn't matter because, just like every other instrument I have ever played, it's up to me to play it in tune, so I do my best to do so. As EW says, "I may have been fired from bands but never for being out of tune."

Other than simple curiosity about what my associates are up to, I don't really care that much how Marty or Eric tune, but everything I have heard from both of them sounds really good and perfectly in tune to me. However they achieve that goal is fine with me. Regardles of what the "majority" of top steelers are doing, I DO care how Mr. Emmons tunes, not so much because everything I have ever heard from him sounds really great, but primarily because his vast experience and ability deserves the respect and study of every serious player of the instrument.

This is really old news, but apparently it's worth repeating again:

<bold>Tune your instrument as best you can and then play it in tune.</bold>

------------------
<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

repeatedly edited in a seemingly futile attempt to spell so many different words without any beats[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 06 July 2005 at 12:56 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 6 Jul 2005 1:19 am

Dave,
Not to nit pic or anything but an interesting part of an orchestra playing in tune is how the different sections work together. Even in a piano concerto when the french horns play there pads they tune the beats out with each other and it works. Its also weird how the first violin section tends to pull sharp and that works also. They don't call it ET or JI or anything. But they know how to listen into the tonal center of the mass of notes around them and find there spot. The ears that classical players have are amazing.

------------------
Bob
My Website

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 6 Jul 2005 2:59 am

I still can't get used to hearing that a well-tuned piano is 'out of tune.' But for all it's 230-odd strings, it does not have the mechanical complexity of a PSG.
The piano is as evolved as it's going to be; the PSG is not.

I've heard Buddy Emmons in recordings with jazz players (I swear that's Paul Desmond in one, and some guy who sounds like Charlie Parker in another), including monster piano players, and it all sounds just fine. (Saxes always sound out of tune to me, but in the context of jazz, they work! Those guys just play, they don't fret the passing tones.) So that means I'm so accustomed to ET that anything I tune comes out that way, no beat counting, just an approximation, and my guitars can play in any key, with their compensated bridges.

And yet Larry Bell's tribute to the Mothers is a marvel of in-tune-ness. And B0b's Minuet for the Well-tempered Pedal Steel--so sweet.

I'll be danged if I can hear the problem.

But I SUSPECT that we're not hearing specific examples of compensations on specific grips and pedals from ET players, because the idea is that ET takes care of that; it's a wonderful convention.
(But if I came over and tuned your steel, there's not a one of you that wouldn't make corrections after I left.)

So if your setup is good for you, where's the beef?
May this thread never die, because these pages may be the nitty-gritty of the evolution of the steel and it's setup and tuning.
And it's going to take a lot of tampering.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 6 Jul 2005 8:41 am

Exactly my point, Bob - you will also find that each of those horn players will tune their various valves slightly different, but they each do what they have to to play in tune with each other.

Interestingly, the very popular and fat sounding "chorus" effect is nothing more than layering of OUT OF TUNE delays on top of one another. Most folks seem to like a chorused sound better than a dry and perfectly "in tune" one. Go figure.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jul 2005 8:58 am

Wow, when Eric puts Mr. in front of my name (Dave G. , too), I know I'm in for it. But thanks for keeping it fairly civil. So many points have been raised that I am going to break up my replies by topic.

FIRST TOPIC: IF YOU DON'T ENJOY DISCUSSING TUNING PROBLEMS, PLEASE DON'T FEEL IT NECESSARY TO EXPRESS YOUR IMPATIENCE WITH THOSE OF US WHO DO. JUST MOVE ON. IT'S OKAY - REALLY.

Obviously plenty of people tune straight up ET by the meter, and plenty of people take a single pitch and tune the rest by ear trying to get the beats out (JI), and many of both groups are very successful; and outside these threads there may not to be much complaining about things being out of tune. So for many people's purposes, these tuning threads may seem unnecessary and uninteresting. If you are one of these people, that's okay, really. Unless you enjoy looking at car wrecks, just move on to other threads.

I am a scientist and analyst by profession. I enjoy picking things apart to see what is going on. So although the repetition in these threads is frustrating and time consuming, I am still learning stuff, and enjoy sharing what I have learned with others (I hope I don't come across as lecturing anyone - I'm not qualified any more than the next guy). Admittedly the subject is a little complicated, but it's not rocket science or quantum mechanics. The actual theory of JI and ET was worked out centuries ago, and it is completely old hat in classical and academic music. But the practical aspects of using these two tuning systems, or some combination of them, on a new and complicated instrument like a pedal steel guitar, appears to still be in its infancy. The very top players and pioneers of the instrument dissagree on the proper way to tune the instrument. So for the rest of us, at least those who enjoy discussing this sort of thing, there is plenty of room for discussion and experimentation. So please join in civily, don't be afraid to ask stupid questions, or move on if you prefer. These discussions are not as likely to make you a better steeler as practicing. It's just something some of us are interested in.

However, I would like to appeal to all of us to not bludgeon novices with exagerations and overly broad generalities that imply they will encounter unsurmountable problems if they use the wrong tuning system. They should simply try both systems and use what sounds best to them. That's what the top pros do. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 July 2005 at 10:01 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jul 2005 9:39 am

2ND TOPIC: WHAT ARE MY QUALIFICATIONS

Most of this doesn't really matter, but since others above have put so much stock in their own qualifications, I guess I should put all my cards on the table. I have played piano for over 50 years, sax over 45 years, guitar over 40 years, Dobro and pedal steel since the mid '70s - but I quit for over 20 years and took it up again a couple of years ago. My piano and sax education was classical, with jazz and rockabilly on the side. My guitar and steel self-education has been folk, blues, bluegrass, country rock and rockabilly - and I also play classical music on pedal steel. For what it's worth, I have B.A.s in sociology and cell biology, a Ph.D. in cell and molecular biology, and post-doctoral training in advanced statistics. I was a research biologist for many years, and now I analyze other scientists' research as a medical research analyst. I'm basically a North Mississippi redneck who got too much education.

I use Fender tube amps, and play Carter, Emmons p/p, Zum, with a Sho-Bud Pro III arriving tomorrow. I'll be playing my JI-tuned Zum uni with The Broken Prayers at Silk City in Philly tomorrow night, if you are in the area.

I guess I'm an intermediate amateur on all my instruments. Probably most others in these discussions are technically better musicians than I am. However, this tuning issue is a technical, mathematical, intellectual problem that I have developed some knowledge and experience with, especially in these interminable JI/ET threads. I learned the theory of the JI/ET conflict long ago as a piano student. But the details didn't stick. With piano and sax you just play; you don't tune. Like essentially all piano players, I play ET tuned keyboards; and like all horn players, I play sax JI by ear. It was only with guitar that I got first hand experience trying both JI and ET. Pedal steel takes the problem to another level and spurred me to look back into the theory and history of this problem. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 08 July 2005 at 01:04 AM.]

Steve English · Post by **Steve English** » 6 Jul 2005 10:02 am

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 6 Jul 2005 10:21 am

I believe that all of the suggested tuning methods have merit because they accomplish the end result of playing in tune...it's a matter of perception or hearing.

I've been around since before tuners were invented, when everyone still tuned to a "note" from a fixed instrument, but I certainly don't profess that tuners are evil and should not be used, because they have proven value in a loud environment when they can adjust a disharmonious tuning to an acceptable "ballpark in-tune".

My conclusion is to Tune everything to 440 and then adjust any strings flat or sharp as necessary. I don't know if this is JI or ET and don't care.

The real and only objective is, that the instrument sounds in tune when it is played or recorded.

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<img height=100 width=93 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/Scan10345.jpg>
www.genejones.com
The Road Traveled "From Then 'til Now"

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jul 2005 10:56 am

3RD TOPIC: CLASSICAL MUSIC AND THE HISTORY OF JI/ET.

Dave G. I think I completely agree with everything you are saying about classical orchestras, but you are leaving out a lot of important stuff. Sure there are keyboards and harps, and fixed pitch percussion instruments like marimbas and glockenspiels. But the dominant 99% of the instruments in an orchestra are fretless strings and horns with variable pitch.

There is one very important difference between the ET instruments and the variable pitch ones. The ET instruments are percussion instruments that have poorly sustained overtones (with the exception of the organ and electronic keyboards). The variable pitch instruments sustain and swell with bows and with breath. Because the clashing overtones quickly die off, ET is more acceptable sounding on those percussion instruments. But ET is much less acceptable on instruments with sustain and swell, and my educated guess is that is one reason that strings have remained fretless, and horns have kept their variable pitch capabilities.

Of course JI and ET are little discussed in professional orchestras. The issues were resolved long ago. You only learn about it in passing in theory and musical history courses (and maybe not at all in the introductory courses). It is not an ongoing controversy, and the instruments have evolved so that it is not a daily problem in tuning. The fixed pitch instruments have to tune ET, no debate. The fretless strings tune their open strings as 5ths (violins, violas, cellos) or 4ths (basses). Thirds are intentionally not included in the open strings. 5ths and 4ths are essentially the same with JI and ET. So there is no potential conflict on the open strings. The pitch of the notes on horns is centered on ET, but the lips can flat or sharp any note to play JI by ear, which is what horn players do.

Of course, as you say, the whole orchestra tunes to the oboe or first violin, who have taken A=440 from a tuning fork or other tuning device. That does not mean they play every note ET. The strings and horns are free to play their harmonies JI where appropriate, and they do - or as you say, they are out right now (actually, they never get in).

I admit to some ignorance as to how fretless strings handle thirds, etc. when they occur on open strings. From watching countles orchestra performances across the country, my impression is that they would use those open string 3rds quickly in passing, but for a sustained note would prefer to fret the adjacent string, if for no other reason so that they could get the usual lush vibrato. It is not exactly an accident that this also allows them to play the 3rds JI for sustained harmony, and also to more perfectly harmonize by ear in spite of their individual strings not necessarily being tuned precisely the same all the way through the performance.

The simple fact is that except for a few ET percussions with minor roles, orchestras play JI. This is not an accident. The best trained ears over the centuries have preferred it that way, and have evolved the mechanics of the instruments and the instrumentation of the orchestra accordingly. I'm sorry if some of you were unaware of this and don't believe me. I didn't expect to have to document these well established facts. As time allows I will look up some references. In the meantime, anyone interested can search the web or talk to someone knowledgeable about tuning issues and musical history in a music school. It's not an important issue in music schools these days, so I'm not sure just anyone in a music school will have well informed answers.

Or better yet, find a couple of classical string or horn players, hook them up to chromatic meters or software, and watch what happens when they play harmony. If anyone wants to place bets on whether they play their 3rds ET or JI, email me, I'm having some cash flow problems lately.

The reason steelers have resurrected this old tuning issue is that we have open strings tuned to 3rds. But steels also are fretless. So we have some of the problems of fixed pitch instruments, but also some of the variable pitch capabilities of fretless strings and horns. Also, we can tune open strings and pedal/knee stops independently for different chords - something not possible with other fixed pitch instruments.

So for all these reasons, the solution to exactly how we should tune this new instrument is not simple and obvious. It requires some thought and experimentation, all of which has been going on since Bud Issac had his hit with "Slowly" in the '50s. But it's not theoretical physics. The rules of ET and JI are fairly simple and very well known (see table below). It is mostly a practical matter of trying to tune JI where possible, and work through all the different chords and inversions to see where it doesn't work. Most pros seem to have done this on their own. Some instructors have presented their tuning methods. But no one has exhaustively laid out the whole problem and its various potential solutions in writing. In previous posts I worked through the ABC and F pedals, and in this one we added the E lower lever. Eventually we will have covered most of the possibilities, and it will be worth publishing, maybe as instructional material and here in the Forum archives. Let's just stay civil and push on with further specific examples. The specific examples are the only way to do this. The generalities just fly past each other without connecting.

TABLE OF RELATIVE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN JUST INTONATION (JI) AND EQUAL TEMPERMENT (ET)

<pre> JI JI ET Diff. Rel. to
fract. cents cents (cents) A=440
I 2/1 1200.0 1200 0 440
VII 15/8 1088.3 1100 -12 437
VIIb 9/5 1017.6 1000 18 444
VI 5/3 884.4 900 -16 436
8/5 813.7 800 14 443
V 3/2 702.0 700 2 440
Vb 45/32 590.2 600 -10 438
IV 4/3 498.1 500 -2 440
III 5/4 386.3 400 -14 437
IIIb 6/5 315.6 300 16 444
II 9/8 203.9 200 4 441
16/15 111.7 100 12 443
I 1/1 0.0 0 0 440
</pre> [This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 July 2005 at 12:41 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jul 2005 11:16 am

4TH TOPIC: HOW YOU TUNE DOES MATTER

I hope people will stop repeating the idea that it doesn't matter how you tune as long as you play in tune. I realize this is a well intentioned sentiment meant to help smooth over the acrimonious debate. But it over simplifies the problem, and implies that this whole discussion is unnecessary.

It does matter to Eric that he tunes ET, because he feels it helps him play in tune with himself and other instruments, and simplifies the tuning process for him. For others of us it matters that we tune JI or somewhere in between, because we feel it helps us play in tune, and we are willing to put up with the complications. It is entirely possible that for different players and different types of music one method of tuning works better than another. In which case it does matter how one tunes.

If it doesn't matter to you how you tune, then move on - no hard feelings, really.

But please stop telling the rest of us it doesn't matter. Some of us consider it an interesting and important problem that has not been fully studied or resolved.

Yes, maybe these are not good threads for beginners. Tune the root of your open tuning to a meter, and learn to tune the rest of the strings and stops both by ear and by a meter, so that your chords sound good to you. That is part of learning to play the instrument. You will come to realize that there are some problems and conflicts. Then come back to these threads to see if anyone said anything useful about those, and if not, then ask about them - and sit back and watch the fireworks.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 July 2005 at 12:19 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 6 Jul 2005 12:03 pm

Golly, David, it looks like the "tuning war of the new millenium!" In your last post, you say, first of all, that those of us who try to play in tune, without trying to NAME the way we tune, should shut up. Then, further down in the post, you tell us to learn to tune without a tuner!?!?!?
You and Mr. Lundgren seem to have a good'un going on here. But if your guitar, piano, oboe---Hey, since when is this a freakin' OBOE FORUM???---ain't in tune, you ain't gonna keep the gig. Not in my band, anyway. I can tune by ear, and consider this ability to be handicapped with the advent of electronic tuners. Any music student studies "ear training." And I don't consider somebody who needs a tuner to get his instrument in tune to be much of a musician---and I LOVE my Petersen VSII!
Call it ET, call it JI----but don't call till it's in tune!

Steve English · Post by **Steve English** » 6 Jul 2005 12:25 pm

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jul 2005 12:40 pm

FINAL TOPIC (FOR NOW): MISCOMMUNICATION WITH ERIC ON WHAT I MEAN BY "SPECIFIC EXAMPLE"

Eric, I learned something from your response, but that is not the type of specific example I meant. What I learned is that you actually like and prefer the slight dissonance of ET 3rds, rather than the pure beatless harmonics of JI. Thank you for that insight. I fully believe that for you and respect it. If that is why you tune ET, then so be it.

To me, the slight dissonance of ET tuning sounds bland and uninteresting. In fact that is one reason I switched from piano to steel (sax was just because it looked shiney and attracted girls). The pianistic bland dissonance has the sound of light modern jazz to me. It's unemotional and boring. The pure harmonics of JI for strings, horns, vocals and steel sound more emotive and interesting to me. Yes, I love straight major and minor chords. I've been playing and listening to piano concertos for over 50 years. I don't think 15 more years would change me.

So we have different ears, different emotional preferences, and live in different worlds. But that's not really what this discussion is about to me. There is no accounting for taste.

Beyond these personal preferences, you continue to seem to say that tuning a pedal steel JI does not work, because strings tuned to JI 3rds for one chord will end up being another interval in another chord or inversion, and so will be out of tune for either JI or ET. For all the most common chords and inversions on E9 (and some on C6/B6), I have shown that is not the case. I continue to seek other chords, inversions, grips, whatever that would illustrate your point. I'm not asking about your preferences as discussed above. I'm asking about how the numbers line up. One can take the JI/ET table above, and take a JI copedant, and analyze what happens theoretically with each string/pedal/knee combination to discover which chords conflict with each other. You can also take a real pedal steel tuned to a JI chart, and use your ears and a meter to search for conflicts. It is a little tedious, but very educational.

Until I started doing this, I really didn't know why JI worked so well on a pedal steel. It seems counterintuitive, because the 3rds should move around among the strings and cause problems. The standard copedant has evolved to solve and avoid those problems to a very large extent. The original pioneers of the pedal steel all tuned by ear. They tried lots of stuff. Anything that caused serous tuning problems fell by the wayside, and we are left with some basic stuff that works very well. So, other than your preferences for the sound of it, there may be no overiding theoretical reasons why one has to tune a pedal steel ET - yet you keep implying there are such reasons. Buddy Emmons seems to agree with you, and presumably has done the homework to prove it. I would love to hear from him on specific examples. But without that, I can't take his word for it as a blanket generality. I got no respect for authority (ask my poor parents and teachers). I have to believe my own ears and meter.

You also claim it is simpler for beginners to learn to tune everything straight up to a meter. Yes, if you tune everything by a meter rather than your ears, it is easier to tune everything straight up 440 than to use a copedant/tuning table with major 3rds and 7ths tuned to 12 cents flat of the root, and minor 3rds and 7ths tune 16 cents sharp of the root. And if tuning everything straight up sounds best, as it does for you, then fine.

For those of us who find the ET dissonance irritating and objectionable, that does not work. Once you learn to tune by ear (to JI or whatever your personal compromise is), it is actually quicker and simpler to take the root from the meter and tune the remaining strings by ear. As Paul Franklin has pointed out, you can learn to tune by ear even in fairly loud situations. You can also carry headphones. Finally, it is not that difficult to memorize your personal copedant/tuning chart, and some people would consider that an essential part of learning to play the instrument.

If coming up with specific examples is not worth the time for you, we can understand that. We all have our lives to live. But that risks conceeding the point.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Jul 2005 3:38 pm

Stephen G., you talkin' to me?

Seriously, I cannot find anywhere that I said any of the things you say I did. You say I said

those of us who try to play in tune, without trying to NAME the way we tune, should shut up.

I don't know what that means, but can't see where I said anything close. If I said something so unclearly as to be misunderstood that badly, please give me the quotes, so I can apologize and straighten things out. I never told anyone to shut up, I just said if you don't care for this discussion, just move on to another topic that interests you more. It just gets tiresome for people to keep saying the discussion is useless and we should stop so they wont bored.

About how to tune, the only thing I said was

Tune the root of your open tuning to a meter, and learn to tune the rest of the strings and stops both by ear and by a meter, so that your chords sound good to you.

In other words, it is good to be able to tune both by a meter and by ear. Where's the problem with that?

I apologize if anyone felt insulted by anything I said. I'm just trying to have an interesting and civil discussion with those who are interested in this.

I was born in South Carolina, Stephen. We should be able to get along. We should just sit down some day and eat some good ole chicken'n'rice.