Comparing Old to Newer

Russell Adkins · Post by **Russell Adkins** » 8 Dec 2017 6:49 pm

Everyone says the old Sho Buds sound so great , as just an observance ive noticed that the under carriage is very different than more modern steel s cross shafts on the older guitars were mounted to a small bracket just barely big enough to hold the cross shaft usually with two screws holding it in place and more modern guitars have the cross shafts mounted to a thick piece of aluminum sometimes with a bushing or bearing in it , given that difference of the two is that the difference in the famous Sho Bud sound? does the Bud have a more natural woody sound I have had several different guitars msa was like a darker sound , nothing like a Bud I had a super pro Sho Bud and was not impressed with the sound I had a Sierra which I liked very well and a BMI which was a very nice sounding guitar The bud being what it was was nothing to brag about imho I don't think ill get another unless I just had myself a lemon any thoughts on the subject? Are more modern guitars built better that the Buds? in your opinions

Michael Hill · Post by **Michael Hill** » 8 Dec 2017 7:20 pm

Modern for me. I can't comment on the manufacturing process but in general, mechanical stuff wears out. Vintage instruments can be cool but when something is vintage and has a lot of mechanics, I would shy away myself.

I've heard it said many times that pedal steel is hard enough to play when the guitar is working right.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 8 Dec 2017 8:21 pm

Modern guitars are CLEARLY built better.
I love the old ones, but they're plain funky

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 8 Dec 2017 9:11 pm

Well for one; The SuperPro does not define "The Sho~Bud Sound" at all. It was a Sho~bud design. Sho~Bud; had I would say, 8 Different main Designs throughout the short 30 years of exsistance....they ALL sounded different from each other.
The sound of a steel guitar starts with the vibration of the string. Then; what it that vibrating on? what it's touching points?; then what is that made of; how is it mounted and to what is it mounted to made of...and continue on down the line from there....and all those different materials and what and how and etc....."That is the sound".
So now with that explanation; if you read it, Shows the amount of difference in just what one builder went through....then taken the era and materials and machinery to choose from them available ...and that question to now....
It is not a easy comparison in such a bottomless pit of scenarios....to wonder a general question as "why does this sound different from this"???
Ricky

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 9 Dec 2017 5:12 am

You hear of the, 1 in 20 or 50 or 100. Usually not "New Out of the Box". Usually not a "Loaded" steel. The best I've heard were not Mica covered, but I've heard some nice ones. The best to my ear, another variable, was an all pull. There again, not loaded, all wood.

If I could get a do over, I'd be a builder... All pull, all wood, sound based... Floating type of changer under the guitar away from "the changer" end.

Then again, I may have heard that 1 in 1000 steel, but it was not being played by that 1 in a 1000 player.

So many variables...

Jerry Dragon · Post by **Jerry Dragon** » 9 Dec 2017 5:32 am

I am in the process of ripping all the hardware out of my ZB D10 and replacing with a modern setup. I am a machinist and can make all the parts. Actually, I am retiring soon and would like to buy a bridgeport mill and a lathe and start making parts. As of now I have a full blown machine shop to work in. I have never done anything like this, so far it has been a fun adventure.
I am a novice at the PSG and don't really know much about PSGS, but, a machine is a machine, it may take a good amount of time and patience but I will get it done, I understand how it works and am going at it with the attitude that it is not rocket science.
I have all the hardware except for the electronics and changer out now. The front apron has to be refinished also, someone for some unknown reason started to paint it black? What were they thinking?

Ross Shafer · Post by **Ross Shafer** » 9 Dec 2017 7:17 am

I'm sure you're going to make a beautiful undercarriage for that old rig. Post some pics please, I love seeing this kind of project!

Jerry Dragon · Post by **Jerry Dragon** » 9 Dec 2017 8:57 am

Ross Shafer wrote:I'm sure you're going to make a beautiful undercarriage for that old rig. Post some pics please, I love seeing this kind of project!

with a little luck. I don't have much to go by and am flying by the seat of my pants. Part of my research someone could help out with is, which parts, besides fingers must be made from steel, what can be made from aluminum?
You have all seen the mechanics of the ZB so no need to post them.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 9 Dec 2017 9:06 am

"Dragon Steel Parts" - has a nice ring to it.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 9 Dec 2017 6:27 pm

Actually, the scissors are steel, but the fingers are aluminum (although Williams uses brass¹)

¹at least I'm remembering it as Williams. I KNOW I've seen brass fingers on somebody's steel, and I'm sure it was Williams, but I have been known to remember things that aren't.

Patrick Thornhill · Post by **Patrick Thornhill** » 9 Dec 2017 7:38 pm

As a professional machinist you may or may not find anything useful here, but at least you may get a sense of how some amateurs approach it. I actually learned quite a bit about changer design reading through it....

http://steelguitarbuilder.com/forum/index.php

Jerry Dragon · Post by **Jerry Dragon** » 10 Dec 2017 4:43 am

I bought a CD on ebay on construction which is helping a lot. They actually have ZB D10 examples in it. They have a bunch of prints to make different parts etc but none of the prints have call outs for material, i.e., steel, aluminum. The original changer is going back in so if nothing is worn out in it I won't have to bother with that. I will have to make new side rails, alum or steel. I was thinking of making the crossrods from Thompson rod, tough stuff. I was looking at some undercarriages and see they have square cross bars which seems to me that might be better, less chance of slippage on parts mounted on it?
Lots of stuff I don't know. What I need is for some of you guys to send me a drawing of something you need and let me see if I can make it. I have a lot of aluminum, hard rolled and cold rolled steel at work I can get for free. Some stainless and tool steel, which I can buy. I have to pay to have something hardened also, I have no way to do that but I can send it out and have it hardened. I have made bellcranks out of 304 stainless steel for someone on this site, they sent me one and I copied it and sent him about 15. I don't remember what make it was for but they were S shaped with the hole in the middle?
I should start a different thread.

Jerry Dragon · Post by **Jerry Dragon** » 10 Dec 2017 5:00 am

Patrick Thornhill wrote:As a professional machinist you may or may not find anything useful here, but at least you may get a sense of how some amateurs approach it. I actually learned quite a bit about changer design reading through it....

http://steelguitarbuilder.com/forum/index.php

You have provided an invalid answer to the confirmation question.
You have exceeded the maximum number of registration attempts for this session. Please try again later.

I went there and tried to register as a new member. When I came to their verification question to determine whether I was a bot, it wasn't quite clear how to respond. I typed in Western Swing, Sho Bud, ho bud, estern ing, WesternSwing, ShoBud, etc. I could not get it to accept any answer. So, I looked for a contact button and could not find any? Whats a po boy to do?
I did bookmark it and will get back to it. I had not found that site in my searches, thanx.

Larry Weaver · Post by **Larry Weaver** » 10 Dec 2017 5:39 am

Heya Jerry,

Shoot me an email or pm and I'll get you fixed up.

Patrick Thornhill · Post by **Patrick Thornhill** » 10 Dec 2017 6:26 am

Yeah, I had the same problem but eventually managed to type “lloyd green” in the way the stupid security thing wanted it. I found Larry’s email address through a WHOIS search, but it was invalid. He’ll get you set up though.

Douglas Schuch · Post by **Douglas Schuch** » 10 Dec 2017 7:24 am

To get back to the original post/question, in my rather limited experience I have found surprisingly little difference between "vintage" guitars and modern guitars in basic playability starting from say the 70's Sho-Buds that had the two-hole pullers and all-pull changers. I never played anything older than that. What IS different is how adjustable modern steels are to fit your body and playing position, how easy it is to change the copedent around, or add additional pedals and levers within reason, and (at least once the multiple up/down changers arrived) how easy they are to tune.

For example, the Sho-Bud Pro II that has the one up/one down changer - it was designed for 8 pedals and maybe 4 knee levers. Trying to squeeze additional knees into it requires a good technician to get them placed properly and working properly. Modern steels will easy add up to 10 pedals and 8 or more knees. The reversing mechanisms for knee levers have advanced a lot, and are more compact and smoother. The only thing that gets complicated about tuning a modern guitar would be tuning splits. But vintage guitars did not have that option, so you are somewhat in terra incognita should you decide to add it.

So, summarizing - I do not find the pedal or lever pressure needed is much different between modern guitars and my Pro II. A little more reduction of friction from the use of modern plastics maybe. But the flexibility of modern steels is much greater.... oh yeah - and the "carry-ability!" - they are much lighter!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 10 Dec 2017 8:18 am

Doug, the "single-single" Bud is more versatile than you give it credit for. As long as it has two-hole pullers instead of racks, the number of changes is limited only by the length of the barrels (so the next change on a rod must be at least three inches upstream from its neighbor), and it CAN do splits (you just need to have both a raise and lower barrel on the change that lowers).

Many of the really older guitars show rather crude machining and "seat of the pants" design. By the late 70s/early 80s, the modern design had become standardized, although some have differing implementations of the basic design.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 10 Dec 2017 12:40 pm

Lane Gray wrote:Actually, the scissors are steel, but the fingers are aluminum (although Williams uses brass¹)

¹at least I'm remembering it as Williams. I KNOW I've seen brass fingers on somebody's steel, and I'm sure it was Williams, but I have been known to remember things that aren't.

I have played Williams guitars for over 30 years. To my knowledge Bill has never used brass fingers. A few years ago he started using hardened steel fingers that are zinc plated. prior to that, he used aluminum fingers. I asked him why the zinc as opposed to chrome plating. He told me that zinc is much harder than chrome These fingers do not groove thereby getting rid of the "zing". They practically never break a string. Notice I didn't say they never break a string, but it is a very rare occurance.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 10 Dec 2017 1:38 pm

interestingly enough, what nobody is talking about is wood itself... new modern guitars will never have the tone f the vintage Emmons, Sho Bud or ZB ... why? simple, new modern guitars are new, and vintage stuff comes with 50 year old aged maple, and you can't make up for those 50 years, no matter how many hundreds of thousands of dollars you have in your tools.... modern guitars play better, but they do not sound better... and thats why...

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 10 Dec 2017 2:54 pm

Yes, but The Blade sounded like that from the top.

Bryan Staddon · Post by **Bryan Staddon** » 10 Dec 2017 3:18 pm

These threads make me depressed that I’ve never played any other steel than my 76 pro II through my Twin Reverb, Could be worse I guess! Just once I’d like to try a modern really swanky steel. You folks sure are lucky!

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 10 Dec 2017 3:24 pm

Old for me.. The sound of old Buds, ZB's, cable Fenders, and original PP Emmons are THE foundation of classic pedal steel guitar sound... Everything after was and is good, great actually, but those 4 pedal steel guitar designs formed the foundation of everything that came later... just my half assed ramblings... bob

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 10 Dec 2017 5:23 pm

Lane Gray wrote:Yes, but The Blade sounded like that from the top.

it doesn't matter, the fact still is that new guitars are not built with 50 year old aged maple... and therefore can not, and will not sound like guitars made back in 60's or 70's ... same with fiddles, mandolins , pianos and bag pipes ... every instrument changes its tonal characteristics with age, so do steel guitars...

Joseph Carlson · Post by **Joseph Carlson** » 10 Dec 2017 5:32 pm

I've spent the last few years owning and trying every major brand of steel I could - Williams, GFI, Mullen, Dekley, Carter, Emmons, and a few off brands - before setting on my current set-up of a 1970s Sho-Bud Pro II and a Fender Twin.

Lloyd's tone on Live at Panther Hall is pretty much my gold standard steel tone at the moment. Not to say I'm anywhere close to that, but in the same general ballpark at least.

Greg Lambert · Post by **Greg Lambert** » 10 Dec 2017 6:44 pm

As years pass , engineering of products usually get better and better. a proven fact. That said If I were looking for a good dependable steel that sounds great I would go for one of the current models on the market today. You cant go wrong with this.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Comparing Old to Newer

Comparing Old to Newer

Could be...

Bummed