Who came up with the C pedal?

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 16 Jun 2005 9:10 am

Hopefully Mr. Green, or perhaps someone else will weigh in here, but I "think" Lloyd Green was probably the one who really popularized it. I seem to recall reading where "The Bridge washed out" by Warner Mack was the first song where Lloyd really prominently used the B & C combination. I'm not sure if this was the first use of it ever, but obviously it was a MAJOR milestone in regards to it's use.

Lem

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 16 Jun 2005 9:15 am

Adrienne,
Try using the 9th string as the root with the B+C pedals. It's a DMaj7 open, spelled
9(Root) 7(3rd) 6(5th) 5(Ma7) 4(3rd)
Choose your own voicing (or is that your own INVERSION?)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Adrienne Clasky · Post by **Adrienne Clasky** » 16 Jun 2005 9:29 am

Thanks, Larry! That's a great tip.

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 16 Jun 2005 9:43 am

"I also need B + C for 4+6 strng harmony lines."

You can get the same intervals by just using the F lever (assuming you have a lever that raises 4 and 8 a half tone).

Instead of:
<pre>
4 3 3C 5C etc
6 3 3B 5B etc

4 3 4F 6F
6 3 4 6
</pre>

You just need a way to switch between minor and major sixths. Same thing on strings 3 and 4, switching between major and minor 3rds.

The BC pedal combination is quite useful for licks, like this ending lick in C:
<pre>
3 8B-8-8B 8 3 3B
4 8C-8-8C 8 8C-8-8C 8 3 3
5 8C-8-8C 8 8C-8-8C 8 3 3A
6 8B-8-8B 8
</pre>

Jeff Newman's old 40-week course had a chapter with a lot of BC pedal stuff.

I have just been too lazy to really work on getting back and forth between "home" position and BC position. I'm sure it's not that difficult if you work at it.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 16 Jun 2005 10:57 am

The only time I ever used the C pedal was in conjunction with the B pedal to get a minor chord. If I put the E to F# raise on my vertical, it will be real handy. I won't eliminate the C pedal however. It will stay like it is.
Erv

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Jun 2005 11:08 am

I've had the E to F# on a vertical for a very, very long time. I don't recommend it because there are better uses for a vertical lever, but at this point it's too ingrained in my playing for me to remove it. I did remove the "C" pedal a few years ago because it was redundant and I never used it.

Now I lower my B half a step on that pedal. Jeff Newman was right, though - that change rightfully belongs on a lever, and the E to F# rightfully belongs on the "C" pedal.

The question remains unanswered: who came up with the "C" pedal?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 16 Jun 2005 11:46 am

Here is a "GREAT" post about the evolution of the E9th tuning as we know it today. Carl Dixon explains it all "except" for the "C" pedal, which Buddy Emmons partially explains later in the post.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002738.html

I love going back into the archives... There are sooo many great posts! This forum is a plethora of information.

Respectfully,
Dave Burr[This message was edited by Dave Burr on 16 June 2005 at 01:11 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Jun 2005 11:54 am

Buddy wrote:

In answer to Carl’s question regarding pedal C, after hearing Ralph Mooney use the E to F# sound on a recording, I added it to the third pedal of my Sho~Bud. The difference in the old pedal C and today’s was I had pedal C close to pedal B. With that spacing I could push pedals A, B, and C down with one foot and get the Mooney sound, or a 7th with pedals B and C, or an add 9 with C alone. I don’t remember who changed the third pedal back to equal spacing, but when they did, they had to put both the B to C# and E to F# raise on pedal C.

So we still don't know who came up with the C pedal that raises both strings together.

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 16 Jun 2005 12:10 pm

b0b, I guess I should have read it a little closer... I edited my previous post to say that Buddy "partially" explains the inception of the "C" pedal. Maybe someone will chime in who knows the "whole" truth.

Respectfully,
Dave Burr[This message was edited by Dave Burr on 16 June 2005 at 01:13 PM.]

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 16 Jun 2005 1:22 pm

There's a lot of cool stuff you can do with the C pedal on the "30 Intros" by Jeff Newman. I wouldn't do without it.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 16 Jun 2005 7:17 pm

Wasn't there a tune called "Apple Jack", by Tom Brumly, that used pedals B&C exclusively ? Not sure of the year, though. You know, come to think of it, it might have been Lloyd Green that did it. But, I'm sure of the B&C pedal riffs.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 16 Jun 2005 8:54 pm

Apple Jack was Brumley

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 17 Jun 2005 3:48 am

Well I guess my comment would be..

It's about where the scale phrases are in relationship to your fretboard position rather than which Pedal to use...

There is a ton of redundancy on this instrument, as there is on other Instruments..but where you play the reduntant phrases and knowing where they are is the ticket...

I too am a hack..shiny AB pedals..but the C pedal has a ton of music on it.. and it's a question of understanding and putting it to use..perhaps those of us that do not play for a living will require more "stretching" and playing out of the box to put it to use...

DO NOT remove it from your Steel..thats my advise..

Step on it now an then..explore..stop playing and start PLAYING AROUND with it...find those common phrases that are right in front of you..

my take

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 17 June 2005 at 04:49 AM.]

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 17 Jun 2005 4:36 am

Jim Vest has his C pedal on his right knee...don't know which way...

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http://home.comcast.net/~stevehinson

Gary Peaslee · Post by **Gary Peaslee** » 17 Jun 2005 3:22 pm

In several of his seminars, I heard Jeff Newman say very sarcastically that the C pedal was useless. He didn't really explain in any detail why he thought so.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 17 Jun 2005 10:12 pm

I only use the C pedal on Mooney stuff or occasionaly with other early pedal steel sounds like Emmons or Jimmy Day.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Jun 2005 4:25 am

I use the C pedal quite a bit. I moved a bunch of the phrases I used to play mostly with strings 3 and 5 with the A/B pedals over to strings 4 and 6 with the B/C pedals. When I was playing in a cover band I needed to cop a bunch of Hughey licks and that really opened up the C pedal for me. The C pedal is a great sound.

OK now, who came up with it ?!

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Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 19 June 2005 at 05:26 AM.]

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 19 Jun 2005 12:04 pm

As we're all aware of the passing of Winnie Winston [R.I.P.], his "bible" [along with Bill Keith] has many songs in there, where the "C"
pedal is used quite a bit.

Go back and check it out.

Listen to "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" again, by the Byrds on "Sweetheart Of The Rodeo". That's Lloyd using a lot of "C" pedal. I like mashing on it. I couldn't live without it.[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 19 June 2005 at 01:06 PM.]

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 20 Jun 2005 8:12 am

I'm with Jerry. P-A (P0?) lowers my first two G# (-), great minor sevenths with combo of P-B (Bbs ++, hold P-A, rock on-off P-B).

I put the E-F# on KLR. Hold this lever and P-C (G# +), while rocking on P-B three frets above the pedals-down I chord position, great blues licks... use the KLR on-off with 1st string, great unisons.... of course all this can be done with the normal P-C, but very clunky.... IMHO.

Also, V chord, sliding down to IV, raise the 4th string 1 fret at a time, as the bar decends each fret... very fuild move into IV7th, then resolve back to I chord, pedals up.

Been doing this since 1970, just can't stop (:>)

That said, I always advise new steelers to be as standard as possible when starting, learn the basics, then try experimenting. Standards were not very standard when I first started, and tabs weren't very standard either. Tom Brumley at 16RPMs was my instruction set.

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 21 Jun 2005 5:56 pm

Since nobody seems to know who "invented" this pedal, can I claim credit for it?

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 21 Jun 2005 6:07 pm

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 22 Jun 2005 9:33 am

I use the C pedal a lot. There are some purty two and three string licks. I use it mainly on strings 3 and 4, and 4 and 6, but also use the B+C together with strings 345, or 456 to get a minor.
try mashing pedals B+C and pick strings 3 and 4 up around the 15th fret or higher. you can get up there in Hughey land.

Terry

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Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Jun 2005 2:51 pm

It's strange that nobody knows the answer to this.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 22 Jun 2005 4:07 pm

Neil Flanz told me this very afternoon that his first Sho~Bud, which he got in 1959, had the C pedal as standard.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

John Lockney · Post by **John Lockney** » 22 Jun 2005 4:55 pm

I thought the intro for "You aint goin' nowhere" was all A and B pedal. But, after messing around with the Lloyd Green licks in the "35 licks video/tab" last night, I can heare where it might be B&C for those quick chords around 0:29 (29 seconds in) right after "...tomorrow's the day my bride's gonna come" ?

And, can we mention "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" without also mentioning that Jaydee Maness played on some of the songs ?

[This message was edited by John Lockney on 22 June 2005 at 05:58 PM.]