Which current mfrs make keyless models (and why not more)?

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 7 Aug 2017 8:43 am

So I've been playing my keyless Sierra for about 15 years and love it.
I'd like to buy another used one if I can find one, but willing to look at other mfrs.
All I know is Williams makes (made?) one. Any others?
And I'm curious why it never caught on. I find string changing and "micro" tuning to be very easy with keyless.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 7 Aug 2017 10:23 am

BMI does, Sierra is back in business, I think GFI does.
So does Excel.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 8 Aug 2017 7:14 am

Williams makes great keyless steels. I like the GFI system because you can just reach up and tune it without a special wrench. I have an S-10 and a 12.

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 8 Aug 2017 9:54 am

Re new Sierra, I have no idea when they will be available.
Re Williams vs GFI or others, I wouldn't have to use a wrench to tune. I'm used to the little turnscrews (see my photo). It's like using a micrometer!

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 8 Aug 2017 10:19 am

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Williams%201 ... yless.html

The excel tool stores right in the guitar!

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012%2 ... yless.html

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 8 Aug 2017 5:21 pm

It would be interesting to know from the builders that offer both keyed and keyless, what the percentage rate for each is. I would guess that builders that don't offer keyless don't feel that they lose enough business to justify the time to design a new tuning system and have to redesign the undercarriage. As for acceptance from players, probably because it just doesn't look traditional.

Cartwright Thompson · Post by **Cartwright Thompson** » 9 Aug 2017 2:57 am

These look pretty slick, I'd love to play one:

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 9 Aug 2017 4:37 am

The Schild seems to defy the generally accepted reasoning for keyless - no or less Hysterisis by having a short (very little) string behind the nut. The Schild seems to have as much as a Keyed type head.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 9 Aug 2017 5:15 am

If I was playing more fly dates I would seriously look at keyless steels. I have seen Excel steels that fit in the overheads !

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 9 Aug 2017 6:17 am

Jack Stoner wrote:The Schild seems to defy the generally accepted reasoning for keyless - no or less Hysterisis by having a short (very little) string behind the nut.

I noticed that too, but that reasoning is at best incomplete. My GFI keyless, which has very little string behind the nut, has as much "hysteresis" as any of my keyed guitars.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 9 Aug 2017 6:40 am

The Excel is pry not as much eye candy as the Williams but it has smoother and more even pulling mechanics and the case is super compact and extra light. Lots of trade-offs but I've grown to like the super compact keyless body which takes up less room in the studio and on the stage!

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 9 Aug 2017 6:45 am

I'm sure the keyless system is fine but, being the farm boy that I am, it reminds me of a chicken with it's head cut off.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 9 Aug 2017 6:50 am

Lamar. He makes one of the most compact keyless tuner units ever. My favorite of the ones that I've owned which would be Lamar, Williams and Sierra.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 9 Aug 2017 6:50 am

Not to forget Kline,,,,very minimal string length behind nut,,,maybe 1/2"?? Kline made only keyless. Used yoke type self synchronizing pulling system very similar to ZBs.

Oooops,,,sorry,,OP asked about current production.

Ross Shafer · Post by **Ross Shafer** » 9 Aug 2017 7:04 am

Erv Niehaus wrote:I'm sure the keyless system is fine but, being the farm boy that I am, it reminds me of a chicken with it's head cut off.

Does that mean a keyed steel looks like a chicken with its head on? There's must be something wrong with our chickens!

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 9 Aug 2017 7:13 am

Ross,
I really don't understand your question.
All our chickens had their heads on until we wanted them for Sunday dinner.

I said: "It reminds me of a chicken with it's head cut off".

Ross Shafer · Post by **Ross Shafer** » 9 Aug 2017 7:24 am

Erv Niehaus wrote:Ross,
I really don't understand your question.
All our chickens had their heads on until we wanted them for Sunday dinner.
I said: "It reminds me of a chicken with it's head cut off".

my attempt at a bit of humor Erv....guess I failed.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 9 Aug 2017 7:30 am

Ross,
At least you gave it your best shot.

How's the pig?

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 9 Aug 2017 7:33 am

Brint Hannay wrote:My GFI keyless, which has very little string behind the nut, has as much "hysteresis" as any of my keyed guitars.

If yours has a solid bolt instead of rollers, then hysteresis caused by "hang across the bolt" is unavoidable.

I made some extensive tests on mine by repeatedly lubricating the bolt with grease, which completely eliminated hysteresis. Problem is that any form for lubrication there only lasts a few minutes, till the string bites through to the bolt and starts hanging again.
Changing the string-angle across the bolt can reduce the problem, but is difficult to achieve in practice because the angle isn't constant throughout the tuning-range in the GFI keyless construction.
Replacing the bolt with rollers is the only real solution for the hysteresis problem on a GFI keyless...

Ross Shafer · Post by **Ross Shafer** » 9 Aug 2017 8:11 am

Erv Niehaus wrote:Ross,
At least you gave it your best shot.
How's the pig?

Arva and her 3 little pals are doing well.

Spoiler Alert Arva and her pals may be making an appearance in an upcoming "makin' Chips" video...not to be missed!

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 9 Aug 2017 8:16 am

Did you ever kiss a chicken on the lips?

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 9 Aug 2017 4:49 pm

GFI makes a keyless. No rollers at the nut, just a Bar that the strings go and lock on the tuners. Made of die board a very stable material. Very light and nicely. The Williams is sweet.

Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 10 Aug 2017 7:58 pm

While string changes & tuning may be easier with keyless, I must say I have never heard a keyless whose tone I liked. They all seem to sound flat & dull; lacking resonance. Seems most players nowadays go for that "Emmons-Zum-Mullen-Franklin" tone, and more than one player I have talked to about this says the keyhead is very instrumental (pardon the pun)in getting that tone, along with aluminum necks. Maybe manufacturers know this. But what do I know...I just prefer the sound of a keyhead steel.
Although I must say, I DO prefer the look of a keyless steel...nice & compact, like it means business.

Jim Morris · Post by **Jim Morris** » 11 Aug 2017 8:44 am

I I'm very new to Pedal Steel, I have only been playing since April so I don't have any experience with keyless guitars but I can tell you what I have heard. From what I understand the keyless models detract from the overtones you get with the key tuners. I do not have as sensitive of an ear I guess because of the keyless models I have heard sound good. I just don't think keyless guitars are in demand enough to Warrant a lot of Manufacturers making them. I know GFI offers keyless guitars but beyond that I think I have seen maybe one or two more manufacturers with them. In general people are reluctant to accept change so I am sure this has something to do with it but rest assure is manufacturers believed producing a keyless version of their guitar was going to make them money I am sure they would jump right on it.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 11 Aug 2017 1:11 pm

I have both keyed and keyless and I like both. I never had someone at a gig mention they did not like the sound of my keyless. It's all fun.