Steels.. Do you prefer classic or modern??

Instruments, mechanical issues, copedents, techniques, etc.

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Bob Carlucci
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Steels.. Do you prefer classic or modern??

Post by Bob Carlucci »

I've been going crazy trying to get a second lacquer steel to go with my Carter,but after weeks of spending hours and hours jumping between 3 steels, trying to figure out like and dislikes, BOTH lacquer classics are on consignment and the Carter is still upstairs in its "place of honor".

I guess this means I really do prefer a modern steel.
I do love an old classic, but as I get older, I seem to find more and more things to dislike on an older guitar and more things to appreciate on a newer steel.

The old ones DO have a special "vibe" and some have a tone thats all thier own, but I always feel a little handicapped by knee levers that are less precise feeling,longer pedal throws, lowers that won't lower all the way, a kind of loose and rattly feel, ,

maybe I need to realize I like the IDEA of a gorgeous lacquer cabinet, but when reality sets in, I like the dependability and playability that modern engineering produces.. anyway, I'd like everyones thoughts.. Why do you play a new guitar , or an old classic?.. I am looking for guys with a strong preference here, not guys that play both types of guitars interchangably. More like,"I won't play a new guitar because"... or ,"I hate the old stuff because"... Yes, as usual I am trying to start fights!! Imagebob
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Jim Peters
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Post by Jim Peters »

I sold my ZBD10, and have never looked back. It is a great sounding guitar, but it always needed so much work, and it weighs a ton!
I bought a GFI keyless S10, and love it! I spend my time practicing instead of adjusting, and the GFI also sounds great.
I think it would be cool to have an older one to restore, and I probably should have done that with the ZB, but who has the time?
JP

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Darvin Willhoite
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Post by Darvin Willhoite »

Both. I love my old Emmons P/P's, but I also love my newer Williams, Fessenden, and MSA. The MSA is a Classic SS, which was made around 1977, but was about 20 years ahead of its time. I put it in the same class as a "modern" steel.

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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

I have owned many many old Fenders, Strats and Tele's....

Most were at best marginal players..but I sure loved to hold them and look at them, and when I brought them on gigs..the other geezer players were all in the....

"Uhhh...Ohhh...AHHHH..WOWWWW " mode...

but if I were going to buy another Tele it would be a brand new USA Natural Ash...

I have owned several Corvettes, my favorite to look at was the 69 Big Block Coupe..my least favorite to drive was the..

69 Big BLOCK Coupe...

I have owned probably only 6 Pedal Steels thru the years..my favorite to look at was the Sho-Bud Professional D10...hands down a beauty..

Another favorite was my Sho-Bud Pro III/D10 in Black lacquer. Loved it...

Obviousy these 2 were excellent sounding Steels.

Nowadays....
My second favorite Steel to play on gigs was my first Carter D10/8+5...

my favorite Steel to play on gigs is my current Carter D10/9+8

I don't have a problem with any Steel...I love them all....the issue I would have is I "WANT" the same configuration..this is what I practice on, this is what I play out on..I don't want to carry less than 9+8 anymore...

The ability to have an extended configuration with consistency and reliablilty is first and foremost......I want to play the gigs with the same guitar that I practice on so I can play the same stuff I have been praticing...well , at least thats the plan....

Modern technology and reliablilty is first a foremost for me..

t

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Randy Reeves
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Post by Randy Reeves »

since I am very new to pedal steel I can only comment to the steel I have. it's an old one.
it has that vibe and tone that elates me evry time I try to play it.
those adjustments and rattles are ever present.
I cant compare so I think I'll take the tone and vibe and rattle and adjustment hassle and play to my heart's delight.
curious about the modern steels. from the sound samples you all send in I have to say very smooth sounding. your expertise at playing has the vibe and tone too.
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Post by Jack Stoner »

I played a 71 PP Emmons D-10 for 11 years (bought new). I bought my present Franklin D-10 in late (end of Dec 82). The Emmons was sold about a month after I got the Franklin and I've never looked back.

I guess I'm a "modern" type. The 82 model guitar is an old guitar but except for the round cross rods it's as modern as the ones being built today. Paul Franklin, Sr. was way ahead on the design curve on Steels.
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Post by Erv Niehaus »

Bob,
May I suggest a Williams? Bill Rudolph builds a state of the art pedal steel and you can get a gorgeous lacquered guitar at no extra cost. Image
Erv
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Post by Marco Schouten »

Buy one of those special laquered Carters, buildt from old slow grown wood.

That way you get the mechanics that you want, with a beautifull body.

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Post by Bob Carlucci »

Well guys.. I really don't need a second steel right now, After the two "woodies" sell, I may try and get a clean GFI. Carter, something made recently that I won't have to be under, "tweaking" all the time. I SO love Sho Buds, the look, sound,"vibe", but this last one was the same as the other two I have owned, just not as stable as the aluminum frame guitars I am used to... more time tweaking with the tuning wrench than I care to spend.

Williams looks like a SUPER nice guitar.. Modern mecahanism, in a "classic" looking package!! .. we'll see what happens down the road! bob
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David Spires
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Post by David Spires »

My opinion is "Modern".

David Spires

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Post by Bobby Lee »

My main guitar these days is a very modern keyless Williams D-12x with an ebony black lacquer finish. Black for tone, lacquer for looks. Image

In all seriousness, it's one of the most beautiful instruments I've ever seen. I don't buy the idea that you have to go "classic" to get a really good looking instrument.

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Post by Mark Metdker »

modern. Less headaches.

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Post by Pat Burns »

..I vote for old, I love the sound that the news ones just don't have...if you get an old one set up professionally, you won't have any more mechanical clanking or other problems than you do with a modern guitar...
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Post by Kevin Hatton »

Older guitars need to be custom shopped/restored. Outside of a Zum or a Fulawka I find ALL of the modern guitars very sterile sounding. When you see what someone like Bobby Bowmen or Brian Adams or Mike Cass can do to an Emmons push/pull you get the picture. Duane Marrs mechanics retrofit on old Sho-Buds also. I've owned three ZB's so far, not one of them was stable or acceptable when I found them, but after being custom shopped by people who KNOW what they are doing the guitars all turned out to be rock solid stable. Its true that you can't micro adjust the throws, but you can get them into a very comfortable range. I have never seen a used ZB that didn't need near a complete go through. I've got one here from Greg Jones shop that would blow your mind about ZB's.
Ricky Davis goes through this all the time taking unstable guitars and making them stable and easier to play. Its all WHO works on them. I've checked out JD Maness's push/pull. It plays like a ZUM. I've also played Dan Dugmore's original Sho-Bud Pro-II. It plays like butter and he records with it every week. The same guitar that cut "Blue Bayou". Lloyd Green's original LDG the same way because Duane Marrs and Jeff Surratt work on it. If you think that you are going to take an old Sho-Bud or ZB, or Marlen from 1973, throw it down and play it, you are sadly mistaken and setting yourself up for disapointment.
I find that most all of the modern guitars are built for profit, playability, and light weight, in that order, and outside of the two mentioned above I wouldn't own one. Tone is the number one factor in my choice.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 May 2005 at 09:21 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 May 2005 at 09:59 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 May 2005 at 10:03 AM.]</p></FONT><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 May 2005 at 10:22 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Post by John Cox »

I too love wood-bodies but, I just got fed-up with working on them after every gig. I had a proIII that always needed to be tuned inbetween songs. After that I went modern.
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Dave Grafe
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Post by Dave Grafe »

Well, Bob, I'm standing up for old and classic here (is this where I put on the target?). I have to admit that my old '78 Pro I is not chock full of levers and such (yet) but as for sloppy, loose, rattles, clanks, etc. I have none of that.

Granted, I generally get along pretty well with things mechanical and I have taken plenty of time to fine-tune all the stops, rods and bell-cranks, but so far most of the newer guitars I have played have been set up with considerably less care. This is not to say that they aren't capable of a high degree of precision, I just haven't seen it done yet. I watch Harley and Doug blaze away with their old P/P Emmons guitars and I'm sure that the mechanics of mine would probably hobble them, but it inspires me to play with beauty, tone, character and SOUL.

Every change on my axe is tight and clean, there's no slack anywhere, the octaves stay in tune as they pull, the pedals are all lined up well with the long pulls leveraged out to match the pedal travel of the short ones. It's got that fabulous old single-coil sound that only Sho-Bud can deliver and I'm loving it!

I last tuned the changes about three years ago, which was the last time I had to tweek the mechanicals, and I simply tune the open strings and I'm good to go every time. It has remained solid as a rock, through airports and airport baggage checkers, outdoor stages in California in the summer and indoor Alaska stages in the winter. So maybe I just got one of the only good ones ever built or something but what's not to like about this?

Did I mention that it has CHARACTER and SOUL?

I just can't get no satisfaction playing on a piece of formica countertop.

So do I duck now?

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<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 05 May 2005 at 09:29 AM.]</p></FONT>
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Post by Carlos Polidura »

WELL GUYS,,, FOR ME, I LIKE BOTH. NEW AND OLD ALIKE. THEY HAVE THEIR ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES BUT THAT'S OK WITH ME.
I NOW HAVE AN EMMONS P/P AND DOES NOT GIVE ME ANY PROBLEMS.
CARLOS
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Bill Myers
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Post by Bill Myers »

I am lucky because I have the best of both. I play a sho-bud pro II with the typical medium brown finish with the very pretty birdseye maple that was re-fitted by the factory with superpro changers and mechanisms. So I get something that is pretty stable and has no clanks or clunks but still get that old sho bud sound and looks!
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Post by Rick Garrett »

So far I've only played old guitars. I did have one Carter that wasn't too old that I liked. I love the old Sho Buds tone best but I am anxious to see what new engineering and mechanics will feel like.

Rick
P.S. I do love laquer though!
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Post by Dave Mudgett »



For me, your entire premise breaks down differently than the zero-sum choice you present. In playing anything, I think the key is to have the right tool for the right job. </p>

On Tony's guitar sidebar, I think it's harder to argue the superiority of modern 6-string guitars. Vintage guitars are about more than yuppie collector panache, though this panache has certainly driven the prices through the ceiling. In the last 15 years, though, manufacturers have reacted by producing good modern instruments again. Preference here is strictly a matter of taste (and willingness to throw around money, unfortunately), but there's no problem setting up a vintage Tele, Strat, or Les Paul to play every bit as well as a modern one, IMO. OK, shredding machines are different, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. </p>

On the other hand, with steels: I think older steels can be set up to play great (I have played a few that seemed to play pretty close to modern steels, I had a chance to compare side-by-side), but it seems to be much more of a challenge to make that happen. I think this has probably helped keep prices, frankly, very reasonable, especially compared to comparable 6-strings. Holy grail vintage 6-strings trade in 5 or 6 figures, but holy grail vintage steels are still well within 4. If a dealer or repairman has the know-how to make a vintage steel play really well, I think it's worth the extra dough. If what I want is a great playing old-school Bud S-10 or p/p Emmons, why would I flinch at 2 grand when practically any new S-10 would cost more than that? The trouble is finding the right one and getting it set up right, I think.</p>

My approach seems to prefer either an S-10 (for classic country) or S-12/14 U for anything else. I won't bore you with why, nor do I want to even accidentally turn this into a D-10 vs. Universal war. The point is that steel configuration sometimes forces the choice of school. </p>

So I hope to eventually find the right Sho-Bud and p/p Emmons S-10s that do it for me. I've sold one of each that weren't right for me. Maybe the Bud will have to be a Marrs refurb. Till then my little BMI works great. </p>

Otherwise, my preference for Universal seems to force me into the modern-school. My only Universal guitar is an 80s Sierra S-14U, it sounds and plays great, but is heavy enough to eventually restrict its use. I'll also have to struggle to figure out whether I trade my MSA D-10 Classic for an older S-12U MSA (which I still consider modern-school), something like a more modern MSA, Carter, Zum, Mullen, Fessenden, or a gearless Williams, Sierra or GFI. </p>

My long term goal is to have 2 old-school S-10s and 2 modern-school S-12/14Us. Of course, I'm open to impression, I could change my mind. Image</p>
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Post by Ricky Davis »

To me; Kevin Hatton has the most insightful post.
It just behooves me to hear folks say: I love the looks and sound of Sho-bud; but I get tired of tuning it...ha.
99% of the time; they are talking about the later pro II/III custom or super pro or any Sho-bud with pot metal chrome plated finger tops..(and the rest of the mechanics). You will have/get warn spots on the finger tops that will inhibit the consistancy in moving that top(along with 15 other probs I can think of but won't go into).
Please do not compare a later sho-bud as a "Sho-bud"> as it may have the name on it; but it is FAAAAAAAAAAAAR from a real Sho-bud.
I have a 1st year LDG(I obtained last year) with barrel tuners behind two hole pullers; and after set up properly, I haven't had to make a pedal or knee lever adjustment yet and I've already cut 4 master sessions and 3 commercials that are airing on Tv/radio right now; so if my Sho-bud is not stable; I certainly would not have those recordings under my belt.
That's with 3 pulls on almost every knee lever with tunable half stops and split tune; just like any modern mechanical pedal steel today; but mine is a single raise/single lower finger that will never wear and will always go and come back perfectly.
So before ya lump in a later Sho-bud with all sho-bud's; play a big body round front Pro-II or The Pro-II or round front LDG or double rasie/single lower LDG or first run of the Pro-II Custom; that is set up properly>than get back to me..ha.. Image Image
(oh and any mid-late 60's Push-pull Emmons set up by Mike Cass>btw)


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Post by Jimmie Martin »

i like sho-buds and msa's. i'm getting a vintage xl in about a week. its nice. next i want a msa ss. just my preferencs.
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Post by John De Maille »

I had been playing a RusLer S-11, with 5p/4k and wood neck, for 27 yrs. I bought this steel brand new. It hardly ever goes out of tune and I never have to adjust anything on it. And, it has that old wood tone more closely related to ZB's. Norm Hamlet used one for a long time, when he was playing for Merle Haggard. It's simply a great steel, totaly reliable, and has killer tone. It also has 27 yrs. of continuous weekends, several years of 4-5 nights, and two horrific rain storms, plus hours of studio time. And yet, it still keeps playing as if it was new. (It doesn't know it's old - like me)
In June of 03', I got a brand new U-12 ZumSteel, with 7p-5k,and TrueTone pickup wound to 19.5k Why, you may ask? Because I felt it was time for something newer and the Zum fit the bill. My new Zum is flawless and plays like silk. It actually chimes with the TrueTone pickup and aluminum neck and I like the glossy black and blackstone front with the drop-V with mother of pearl inletting.
And yes, I switch back in forth between the two, on occasion, depending on what mood I'm in. This way, I have the best of both worlds. A very solid, older wood necked steel and a brand new aluminum necked steel with all the newer advantages. I love them both!
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Tony Prior
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Post by Tony Prior »

Ricky ole pal, If you have to select a particular model of Sho-Bud to be able to get a reliable one and label it a REAL Sho-Bud we're in deep poo poo...I thought my PROIII ws excellent, and it certainly was different than the D10 Professional for sure.

Dave , concerning the old Fenders in comparison, you are correct in that yes, you can find one and set it up to play great..I was not referring to the Vintage market but rather the Instruments when they were new. Back then the consistency was not even close to what is today .

Anyway guys, I doubt anyone here would not be proud to own a nice old Steel, I know I would, actully I did, but sold them both recently.

I think the conversaton is more about the guitars we personally want to lug around and play on multiple 4 hour gigs and shows.

t<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 05 May 2005 at 03:19 PM.]</p></FONT>
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mike nolan
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Post by mike nolan »

I own 2 Push Pulls, a round front LDG, and an S10 Williams. Mike Cass set up the D-10 PP and it never needs anything but a keyhead tuning. Ricky Davis was kind enough to share his knowledge about the 74 double single LDG that I had. I did the work myself and it was great. I just got the 73 LDG. Took it to a gig the first night, right out of the box, and no problems. The Williams is as close as I have found to a modern guitar with a vintage vibe and I am happy with it.

The real thing is that most vintage PSGs can be made to play very well for most players. I happen to like longer pulls and easy action. I am not a real "speed picker" so I don't need really short pulls. I can see that there are some limitations to the older changers.... I have always found ways around those limitations that work for me. I have to admit that the longer I play, the fewer changes outside of the "Old Standbys" that I need. I can do pretty much all I want with 3 and 4 these days.

I'm rambling here, probably as the result of the root canal that I had earlier today, but I am trying to say that it is a good idea to learn to work on the mechanical part of your guitar and on your playing technique. Eventually, the personal style that you develop will tell you what kind of a guitar that you need