Explain the use of delay to me.

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 25 May 2017 12:41 pm

Another Newbie question here.

I'm curious to know what the usual use of Delay is for a Pedal Steel. Why do folks use delay? Also, what types of delay are used and what are some general settings that one might use as a starting point?

Thanks!

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 25 May 2017 1:55 pm

Speaking for myself; I use a slight amount of delay only, just enough to fatten the overall tone. Individual settings may depend on brand and type of unit but mostly on what ultimately sounds the best to your ears.. My personal choice is the Strymon 'Brigadier', an analog type delay which I feel tends to sound warmer and more musical than its digital counterparts.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 25 May 2017 2:03 pm

Most steel players use a single repeat about 200 ms to nuke the subtlety of the instrument.
Play note
Start to squeeze the pedal, all slow and pretty.
200ms later, while the B note is ⅔ of the way to C#, slam it in the backside with the original B, letting the microtonal dissonance hang until 200ms after you're done squeezing the pedal.

I carry a delay pedal in my car, it's a chock.

Seriously. I cannot bear to hear the way most people use it.
If you're a new player, use nothing but a touch of reverb.

One gig, a house sound engineer "gifted" me with delay. I played no more than absolutely necessary, and removing all trace of portamento until the end of the set. Ugh. I don't like that sound.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 May 2017 4:03 am

Explain the use. Well mostly it's a personal choice. Like any effect pedal or rack unit, overused it's a deal killer, used appropriately may enhance your sound.

I can go either way, for years I used a slight delay then for years I didn't, now I do again. I use approx 275 to 300 ms, single slap mixed at around 15% . Which means NO extra repeats, just one and the amount of delay in the signal is minimum, hence 15%.

To my ears it just kinda fills in some space, not abusing the space.

I certainly agree with Lane above, too much is, well too much. Better to have NONE than too much.

The big mistake many players make is we buy an effect, we don't actually practice with it or learn the nuances of it, but yet we bring it to a gig and plug it in. For ex: If we listen to Buddy ( and others ) using some delay, it's part of the music, not an added effect on top of the music. It's by design. Effects should never be an after thought at the time of a gig. It's part of our playing.

it should be subtle, at least in my mind...unless of course the song dictates heavy effects.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 May 2017 4:55 am

I use delay pretty much all the time these days. Have for years.

I use a walrus audio bellwether delay. It sounds like a carbon copy but has a tap delay feature that comes in very handy. It's an analog machine and adds a a character to the sound that I like.

Nathan Guilford · Post by **Nathan Guilford** » 26 May 2017 5:15 am

Overuse isn't always all bad. Creative use of heavy delay is cool too! No...it's not a "classic" sound but, I can use a bit of overdrive and delay to do some really cool textures in the background of a song. I can reference wind sounds, storm sirens, take up all the space between snare and cymbal crashes.

Analog delay can do some funky feedback sounds too. Pedal steel can be a very creative instrument if you open your mind a touch to the possibilities. Never say never!

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 May 2017 6:39 am

Nathan, delay actually is a classic part of the sound. When I was spending time with buddy Charleton he had a little analog delay on all the time. John Hughey also. You hear it consistently as a part of the steel sound on recordings stretching over decades. It is used as a subtle and sometimes not so subtle part of the overall sound. It can blend the steel sound in with the tune without making it mushy like too much reverb.

Check out the Jeff Newman peavey profex pro player presets. Delay is a big part of them.

Part of Emmons tone on many recordings was the absence of reverb and presence of delay.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 26 May 2017 7:01 am

In 1975 I sat 15 feet from Emmons as he was setting his Echoplex prior to a two hour jam. He set it with 3 repeats. The first repeat was half the volume of the initial note. Then second repeat was half the volume of the first repeat and the third repeat was half the volume of the second repeat. He likely used a slight amount of Session 400 spring reverb, but I don't recall it. The delay was approximately 300ms - 350ms. When he plucked one staccato note, it sounded extreme. When he played a string of notes, it sounded great.
I use approximately the same setting on my delay and add a tail to it with digital reverb. I duplicate what I hear on his studio recordings.
I have two systems: (Pedals)MXR Carbon Copy in front of a Hall Of Fame reverb. The other (rack mount) is a TC Electronic M350. I'm happy with either one. The M350 is more specific and detailed in settings and I can program a few different settings and recall them quickly.

Nathan Guilford · Post by **Nathan Guilford** » 26 May 2017 7:33 am

Thanks Bob and Dennis for the insight!

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 26 May 2017 7:34 am

I play with a slight single delay, it's called a "slap back" delay.

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 26 May 2017 7:59 am

Thanks so much folks,

I came across a stupid deal on a TC Nova Delay so I grabbed it. I really appreciate the advice for settings. I want to avoid overuse or using it "just because" so it's good to have some ideas for it's purpose and use.

Keep'em coming!

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 26 May 2017 8:17 am

The reverbs in the TC350 and Hall Of Fame Pedal have a "pre-delay". The pedal "pre-delay" is factory preset via a mini switch. The M350 "pre-delay" has a knob to adjust it. The "predelay" will allow the dry note to produce itself a few ms before the reverb becomes present. This eliminates the "in the well or in the cave" sound and punctuates the initial signal (note/chord). If you prefer reverb only, I feel that the pre-delay is a must have, but I use it along with the delay.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 May 2017 8:25 am

That is a great pedal !
Try setting the sub division at a beat and a half then tap in the quarter note of the music playing. Use the blend to taste.

Experiment with the slap pre sets. Use the blend and color knobs to find a spot where it sits in nice. Again, that tap tempo feature can make a world of difference.

One of the super cool things about delay is that you can keep the snap of the pick on the strings in your sound.

What Dennis says about pre delay is essential information. It is a key component in Paul Franklin's sound.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 26 May 2017 11:43 am

As I mentioned in another discussion, I usually add just a touch of delay (one very subtle repeat) with reverb when we play outdoors. I think it can make it sound more like a large room, with just a hair of reflection coming off a wall.....that isn't there.

I hate hearing over-used delay pedals creating extra notes pinging around, getting in the way of the music.

Steve Sycamore · Post by **Steve Sycamore** » 27 May 2017 12:57 am

You can also set the delay to less than 80 ms where it isn't really noticeable as a separate echo but fattens the sound. That can affect tone if you're playing in mono so an EQ accompanying the delay might be useful. Better yet is to pan the short delay opposite to the original signal for a luxurious stereo setup with a 3D feeling.

One ms is very close to the time it takes sound to travel one foot. So a 40 ms delay models a wall 20 feet away that reflects the sound back to you.

Some devices such as the Source Audio Nemesis have a diffusion option that smears the delayed signal. That can be used to beautiful effect because the resulting delay is also not as noticeable as a separate sound so you can either increase the level of the delayed sound or use it in a more subtle way.

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 27 May 2017 8:09 am

Even more great info!

Steve,
The 80ms is a great suggestion. The NOVA makes it easy to dial that in so I'll give it a hot.

Lee,
The idea of an invisible wall reflection makes alot of sense. Before this thread I'd not realized that.

Bob,
Thanks, I'll try those settings.

Tommy Shown · Post by **Tommy Shown** » 27 May 2017 8:54 pm

I use a delay, but sparingly. And what I mean is, not on every song. But I use it on Folsom Prison Blues. Our band does that song, and I do a train whistle for the song as a fill in. Playing steel, you want fill in where need. In other words less is more.

Dan Kimpel · Post by **Dan Kimpel** » 27 May 2017 10:55 pm

Here's another use of delay that hasn't been mentioned yet. It makes you seem like you're playing twice as much, and can be very effective if PRACTICED

https://youtu.be/VxOYom78IHA

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 1 Jun 2017 9:03 am

I use a TC Electronics NOVA Delay.

Just a slight amount, 1 repeat. I do adjust the time setting to the tempo of the song via the 'tap tempo'feature.

Swing 8ths or straight 8ths settings adjusted, as applicable. There is a reason these setting variations are on the unit.

If you use delay and leave it static to one time setting all night long... I don't know for the life of me why you would want to do that.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 1 Jun 2017 9:07 am

It seemed like the Big E didn't have any problem with his Boss DD-3.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 1 Jun 2017 9:59 am

Tim Harr wrote:
If you use delay and leave it static to one time setting all night long... I don't know for the life of me why you would want to do that.

As I mentioned above, I like to use a touch of delay when playing outdoors. I will also use a little delay when playing in a dead room that has carpeting and lots of drapes.

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 2 Jun 2017 11:26 am

Thanks folks.
I've tried the the TC Nova delay a few more times since I started this thread and I think I'm getting close to a sound that I like. I recently acquired a mini-mixer (don't have to walk over to adjust the amp volume anymore) and I've rearranged my practice space with a second orchestra style music stand that I can set effects on so it's much easier to tweak this stuff.

Much appreciated Tim,
I'll put those settings in and see what I can do.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is that this will be the last delay I buy for a very long time. It seems to do everything I could want in a delay and a whole lot more.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Jun 2017 11:21 pm

I use an old Echoplex that I got from it's inventor, forumite Don Dixon. Nothing compares to it, but it's not just the tape repeat, it's also the electronic circuit. One night the tape broke, so I unplugged it and took it out of my very simple chain. Soundman immediately came up and asked what had I done, and that my sound was seriously screwed up! I plugged it back in, without the tape delay, and the soundman was happy again! So it's not just the tape delay, but Don's electronic circuitry.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 4 Jun 2017 7:48 pm

I use two analog delays - sometimes one is an Echoplex. I set them for subtle intensity and two different time/repeats. My settings when I played live changed depending on where I was playing. IMO there's no "best" setting.

I used them in place of combo amp spring reverb, which (in the Fender type design) primarily sounds like it's affecting only the highs and lows, which to me sounds terrible except in surf music!

Karen Sarkisian · Post by **Karen Sarkisian** » 23 Aug 2017 6:33 am

Bob Hoffnar wrote:I use delay pretty much all the time these days. Have for years.

I use a walrus audio bellwether delay. It sounds like a carbon copy but has a tap delay feature that comes in very handy. It's an analog machine and adds a a character to the sound that I like.

Bob do you also use reverb or just the analog delay ?