A Wacky Idea?

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 8 Mar 2005 7:36 am

Check some of the many years old posts wherein I was describing what has turned out to be the beast and you will find the comments re moving the changer/tuner to the players left, which can then allow other types of pickup to be employed along with the standard type...including Piezo's.

Re Piezo based pickups and body/changer noise: I am on the side that says that they can be designed to do the job. Why would I say that? Because I have designed Piezo devices to detect the minute flaws in the hard drives and, also for the other extreme of sonar applications. Not the same as buying an existing Piezo pickup and sticking it on the instrument.

The rod/bridge system on the beast and the baby beast allows a quick change to alternative structures and sounds.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 8 Mar 2005 9:36 am

Bobby Lee, I played the guitar through a Dr. Z Prescription Combo. Perhaps piezo/digital wasn't a good descriptive word combination, but it had that sort of sound to me. Just not real-sounding. Some of the sounds were "okay", but just "okay" is not that great. But as an alternative to carrying a huge bunch of instruments around, it certainly works. I think that, for me, there is too much of the real harmonic content of the real instruments missing in the models. They sound sort of "flat" to me. Probably another bad choice of words! Single-dimensional? I don't know. I was disappointed with the guitar after all the hype that I'd read.

Charles Turpin · Post by **Charles Turpin** » 8 Mar 2005 9:55 am

Mike i wondered if the Rolands Guitar Synthsizer that they built for the telecasters would give the same sounds to pedal steel. But they would have to make a bigger pickup for them.
I have a friend that has one on his telecaster and there is that Banjo sound tony is looking for. hehehe
I get the bacnjo sound out of a cigar box, no joke.
One time a friend of mine was in Nashville and we saw a steel player that pretty soon the band was doing a bluegrass song and we where hearing a banjo and couldn't figure out where it was coming from. We got to talk to the steel player during intermission and he told us how to do it. You go buy a cheap cigar that comes in like a plastic tube nad you cut the tube off the same length of your bar. Usingthat for a bar will give you that banjo sound to a tee. Just a mystery of life hehehe. Just thought i would add this in .

Zumsteel/ Double 10/ 12 universal/ two Nashville 400s/ Zum volume pedal/Digitec delay

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Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 8 Mar 2005 11:53 am

I've only used my Variax acoustic on recordings. It does sound 'piezo'. That is the best description I've heard.

I actually run mine into a black box, before it goes through a Neve preamp, to Pro Tools, and even then I have to use a compressor and eq plugin to make it sound acceptable.

Like I said, in a mix, it does the trick.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 8 Mar 2005 12:26 pm

CT: I use the ROLAND GR1 and GK2 pickup on my instruments. Slant the pickup to get the right strings lined up. Use the rubber magnet strips from Home Depot to stick on the neck at a slant. Stick another piece to the bottom of the pickup and slide the pickup to the 6 strings that you want to MIDI. You can take the curve out of the pickup with sand paper if you are careful.

seldomfed · Post by **seldomfed** » 8 Mar 2005 12:48 pm

I've always wonderd if this could
be modified to the task - clearly it would
be hip on a lap steel simply for changing tunings.
http://www.transperformance.com/video/tuning_example.htm [This message was edited by seldomfed on 08 March 2005 at 12:50 PM.]

MUSICO · Post by **MUSICO** » 8 Mar 2005 1:30 pm

We shouldn't be talking variax...we should be talking Roland VG88....it is a floor pedal that does EXACTLY the same thing as the variax. You need a guitar that has hex pickups...A Godin acoustic or an electric with one of Roland's hex pickups (or 2 for a twelve string PSG)

It does banjo, sitar and can retune individual strings...even intelligently HARMONIZE individual strings.

One BIG problem of virtual retuning is that the overtones that ring from other strings are all wrong.

There is a major manufacturer making MODIFIED roland hexaphonic pickups for use on instruments with 12 strings and non-radiused fretboards!!!!!!

I quote from their website....
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Since that time, we have been selling and installing our customized Roland MIDI interface system for new and old ??????? instruments. As authorized Roland dealers we modify the GK-3 pickup to fit the closer string spacing and flatter string profile of The ??????.
-----------------------

Your starter for 10 dollars.

¿Who are they?

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 8 Mar 2005 3:10 pm

http://www.stick.com/instruments/midi/

I actually almost bought one of these things once, but then I figured I am so far from really mastering regular and steel guitar, maybe another toy wouldn't help me much... you can send my $10 to b0b. Hmmm.. I wonder what the string spacing is on one of those puppies....

MUSICO · Post by **MUSICO** » 9 Mar 2005 1:20 am

I think the string spacing is pretty close to PSG.

I have a ztar so I can 2 hand tap (well I could if I could) so a stick is not TOO much of a temptation.

I have wondered about a couple of their hexaphonic pickups going into a couple of VG88. It would be the VariaxPSG that bOb was dreaming about.

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Mar 2005 5:10 am

I was musing the other day about how early steel players were basically playing horn lines, and wondered if a harmonizer could be used to modify tone and really become a horn, or string, section?

Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 9 Mar 2005 12:17 pm

I was musing the other day about how early steel players were basically playing horn lines, and wondered if a harmonizer could be used to modify tone and really become a horn, or string, section?

See? This is the right idea. Instead on guitar and synth players mimicking us and taking away our play, we'll focus on eliminating horn sections. I like it.

db · Post by db » 12 Mar 2005 9:47 pm

http://www.bunker-guitars.com/index.html
Make Magnetic Hexophonic (single-coil) or any "multiple-string" pickups.
They turn coils on a very small bobbin to allow for less than a 3/8" spacing . . .
I am not sure of the minumum.
You would have to contact them.
Dave may be interested in the idea enough to "do the time" to working out the design details to have them made.
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 12 March 2005 at 10:32 PM.]

db · Post by db » 12 Mar 2005 9:56 pm

The other "new technology" way to go is with a "Hall-Effect" sensor.
These are used as sensors for cam rotation (RPM) . . .
They are evolving and the price is coming down.
But, I do not know if they are up to the frequency response
and harmonic content capability sensing yet.
They might be close to the "MIDI sensor" fundamental sensing spec'.
But, not the "full-tone-characteristic"-spec' needed for the "Variax".

OOOPS...
Almost forgot . . .
Who am I !
Dan Balde

( BTW . . . I do not get this new rule . . .
My profile & email are availible to everyone any time I post!
(?)
If you don't know who I am, it is very easy for anyone to find out!)[This message was edited by db on 12 March 2005 at 10:37 PM.]

db · Post by db » 12 Mar 2005 10:21 pm

Also,
Harvey Starr at StarrLabs has had some "doings" with custom Mag-Hexophonic pickups.
http://www.starrlabs.com/
His email address is: harvey@starrlabs.com
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 12 March 2005 at 10:29 PM.]

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 13 Mar 2005 9:54 am

Thanks Dan.

(wearing my sysop hat for a moment...) The "use your real name" rule helps to prevent the kind of rudeness and chaos that happens when people can post anonymously. It makes the Forum a calmer place. Also, it's very helpful in the Classified Ads to know who you're dealing with.

Dan, if you or any other long-time member wants a new "real name" membership, just email me and I'll set it up. Your "db" membership was grandfathered in, and I know that you're not a troublemaker.

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/b0bxicon.gif" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
System Administrator

db · Post by db » 23 Mar 2005 3:45 pm

Hey b0b,
Any luck with these contacts?
I am with you on these ideas . . .
I would like to see a synth setup for Pedal Steel. . .
Pickups for more that 6 strings & multiple string trigger interface setups.
I am working on a "selective access" interface for a "more-than-6-string" instrument to a STD 6 string Synth controller.
With PSG there are STD grips and all of the strings are not activated at once!
The "interface" would preferentially direct string commands to "preset" channels.
The "down side" would be that if a certain two strings were to be activated at the same time, no midi controller signal would be sent!
This would be a big step beyond having to have two complete midi controller systems for a 10 or 12 string instrument.
The first application for this system is on a 7 string instrument were two strings share the same midi channel.
It's "out-there", but, I wil keep you informed.

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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 Mar 2005 3:52 pm

I'm not really interested in synth steel, Dan. People seem to confuse the Line6 guitar emulation technology with MIDI, pitch-shifting and synthesizers. It really is nothing of the sort. It changes the balance between the fundamental and overtones coming from each string. The sound itself still originates from the string, not from a MIDI controlled synth.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

db · Post by db » 23 Mar 2005 8:34 pm

b0b,
The two references that I posted were pickup mfgrs. . .
(Nothing directly to do with Synth) . . .
This is just how I got interested in looking into the various pickup possibilities.

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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 24 March 2005 at 05:13 PM.]

db · Post by db » 24 Mar 2005 4:52 pm

A while back I had a thread going called "It's Built Backwards"
to discuss some of the advantages of having the changer at the nut
and the tuning machines at the bridge.
If you built one backwards and used the Piezos . . .
They might be far enough away from the noise of the mechanism.
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 24 March 2005 at 05:12 PM.]

db · Post by db » 24 Mar 2005 4:59 pm

OH . . .
I just reading Eds' post were he already made mention of this idea . . .

Anyway, I think it would help solve the noise problem.

Roy P. Thmpsons' "PedalMaster" has the same string spacing at the changer and nut . . .
This type of model would be the best choice in that the basic design lends itself to the "Flip".

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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 24 March 2005 at 05:08 PM.]

Mark Lind-Hanson · Post by **Mark Lind-Hanson** » 25 Mar 2005 3:00 pm

It's nice someone IS thnking along these lines. Perhaps out of all the input here, someone will be inspired to create something most ofus could actually use ?!? For about a year I have been wondering if some sort of MIDI modifications weren't possible with asteel so you might use any number of prededicated samples (horms, strings, perhaps in conjuncjution with modules, like the Roland sets...) practically, it doesnt seem impossible, but it would need to be something, like the guy was saying, which isn't necc. piezo driven...

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 31 Mar 2005 9:20 am

instead of piezo p/u's maybe you could use some other type of p/u technology that would lessen or eliminate any problems in regard to picking up pedal noise. For example, what about infrared p/u's (which detect vibration of the strings using IR light)? I don't know much about them -- maybe they wouldn't work. [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 31 March 2005 at 11:05 AM.]

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 31 Mar 2005 9:50 am

db,

FWIW, I have tried using hall-effect sensors with an old Korg Z3 MIDI pitch to MIDI converter and it does work with a pedal steel. I had a half dozen sensors hooked up and all working about 5-6 years back. I always wanted to build a 10 or 12 string setup and try with the new roland modules but have not had the time to do so. I have also hand wrapped some some coils and I was able to get the to work with the pitch to MIDI converter as well. The hard part was to find some small magnets and the wrapping of coils.

db · Post by db » 31 Mar 2005 7:36 pm

Hey Robert,
I saw a curriculum paper for a Physics Department project at a University that was devoted to exploring this endeavor.
It is very interesting to find that some one actually tried it and was successful!
Do you remember the Spec's of the components or manufacturer/part numbers?
The technology has come a long way in the past 5-6 years.
The performance must have gone up and the price may have come way down by now.
I have been working on a selective channel-stearing system for getting a 12 string instrument to feed into a STD 6 channel system. (In that you are rarely playing all 12 strings at once. . . But, using "grips" of just 3-5 strings.)
If I ever get around to working on it . . .
It would be helpful to get the "base line" spec' will work.
Thanks,
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 31 March 2005 at 07:49 PM.]

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 1 Apr 2005 4:33 am

Dan,

I tried several different parts most from Allegro Micro. I think the biggest change in the past couple years with hall-effect devices is that they now are available in fairly small SMT packages. There are lots of HE devices with various digital outputs but those won't work for this application.

You are right with 6 strings covered you can make it all useful on a PSG. For the most part strings 3-8 are what I used. Lower strings present another set of challenges.

From a KISS approach I think the small magnetic pickup with an op-amp works just fine. Maybe one of these days I build a winding machine and give this all a try once again. It would be nice to have a MIDI system with all the cool sounds available these days. Thanks for posting, this has been one of the more interesting posts in a long while.