learning to play/tablature

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 5 Feb 2005 2:18 pm

I've been thinking about the problems involved learning to play this beast ever since someone asked about getting tab to "Last Date."

I've been in touch with Peter Wernick, an old friend, who goes by the name of "Dr. Banjo." Pete runs music camps for aspiring players. When I asked him about the problems of learning how to play from reading tablature he equated it with the difference of learning to "recite", when one should be learning how to "speak" the language. He says he's seen this with ESL adults learning to read English. "Sometimes they are fluent, without actually knowing how to put together a simple sentence on their own. That works for some kinds of music, such as classical, or Broadway show
music. But it has not much to do with bluegrass." And, I will ask that we substitute (in this context) "steel" for "bluegrass.

I recall Nils Tuxen telling me about watching Lloyd do a number of shows and how "he never played it the same way twice." We might THINK he did-- after all "San Antonio Rose" is just "San Antonio Rose." But to Lloyd is is just a structure of a tune where the pieces can vary in subtle ways.

Pete says: "I do a lot of group teaching and quite regularly encounter people who have never been taught how to play music with other people, but maybe have had *years* of lessons guiding them through tabs only. So they can (sort of) play one break to various instrumentals, but AMAZINGLY, don't know the chords! They have no idea what to do when people jam on 'Will the Circle Be Unbroken'.
"So how do I deal with individual tab-bound students? I give them the
unpleasant news that I think they've been taught wrong, and then say I'll be showing
them how to speak the language. Luckily, it will use pieces of what they
memorized, but it will also involve starting to develop a fast learning curve in
learning chord progressions, and at some point "hearing" chord changes. This news
bewilders those poor folks who've invested hundreds/thousands of dollars on
lessons and tab books. Sometimes it bums them out. Luckily I have them in the
class long enough so they begin to "get" the other way.
"I don't let people play with books open. Chords are followed by watching the
guitar player (who if no one knows the chords, is allowed to look in a book)...I tell people, 'The Star Spangled Banner' is a really hard song. How did you learn it?"

So Pete hits the crux of the problem. When you learn from Tab you are learning to "recite" but not to "speak."
This is not to say that Tab is "wrong." What Tab can tell us is what positions are being used, and how certain things are phrased.
When I started out I got Jeff's "Music to E9th by." I've never gone through it completely. It was, to me, boring. In was in a hurry to learn to speak. But, I DID listen to it and isolate those few places where I could not figure out how to play the phrase-- and then, the tab gave me guidance.
And... I played with people. I started with playing along with records. They are great people! They do it the same each time, and don't complain when you screw up. I had a few records that were my faves-- two of Kitty Wells, one of Ray Price, one of Loretta, two of Tom T Hall. I just put them on and played along. It is GREAT ear training-- none of them tell you what key they are in... Sometimes I listed to the steel ON the record, most times I didn't.
I learned a lot about how to play and how to "speak."
I rarely spent time working on instrumentals.

But now, we have all this material available to learn from and, in some ways, it has taken the "learning" out of the process.

Just my two cents.

JW

Jim Jasutis · Post by **Jim Jasutis** » 5 Feb 2005 2:37 pm

I'm new to all this, but I agree that you need to know more than just how to read and parrot back what it in the tab. My questions is, are there any good books or tutorials on music theory and chord progressions and substitutions that can give you a good foundation for doing your own thing?

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 5 Feb 2005 2:39 pm

or that a rookie can understand?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Feb 2005 2:44 pm

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/002272.html

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 5 Feb 2005 3:00 pm

larry don't go under that rock. just do it man.

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 5 Feb 2005 3:07 pm

if you all made a lesson book on what you can do on a song in variations and a person catches on they could learn their own music huh instead of by the letter. does that make sense?

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 5 Feb 2005 4:15 pm

Reece has learning material that tabs a song, but also gives you 3 or 4 different ways to play the song. First you learn your chords in all different positons and then when you play his tab, it really makes sense. I have to play TAB to learn a melody I do not know. When the melody is learned,I know there are many different ways to play it. But I still believe TAB has a place in my learning curve ![This message was edited by Richard Gonzales on 05 February 2005 at 04:18 PM.]

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 5 Feb 2005 4:27 pm

I am by no means a proponent of conventional tab. I spent 2 years going down that road and almost quit because all I could play is "songs" and could not play the "guitar" at all!!

Then thanks to some lessons from Reece, I was finally on the right track. To those just starting out I highly recommend a live teacher who does not teach tab or just licks! You need someone who will teach music theory as applied to the steel!

There is however some tab Reece developed that shows the "holding", "substitution" & "passing" chords which apply to all songs. It's called Smart Tab and is the most informative "tab" I know of. It don't replace a good teacher, but it's much better than conventional tab.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Feb 2005 5:11 pm

So, Richard, are you saying that you don't aspire to be able to learn a song unless it's available in tab format? Do you realize how many songs are out there -- for example in sheet music or just on a record or cd -- that will never be tabbed out? Seems a shame not to be able to play those songs too. You can learn to figure out those songs without tab.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

William Griffith · Post by **William Griffith** » 5 Feb 2005 5:17 pm

Hello All, Boy can I relate to what Sidney went thru, Im going thru the same thing now, sometimes I want to put it in the case and give it to someone. Some tab seems to be ok but when you depend on one sourse of learning I seem to fall into a deep rut. When I started I had no clue on how to make music or how to stay in time. At least now I can play with a track but you take the tab away its like someone slammed the door shut. I learn scales and then can't figure out what to do with it, the mechanical part of the steel isn't a problem its the understanding of music and how to make it. Teacher would be great but theres no one in my area that I know of. You guys are on the right path, keep up the good work because you'd be surprised at how many of us are out here fighting this black hole. I'd take all the help I could get, I love this instrument. Thanks Bill

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 5 Feb 2005 6:15 pm

Larry- I said that I need TAB to learn a melody that I do not know. If I know a complete melody, I do not need TAB. I play the melody using its chord structure. When I learn a melody from TAB then I can play many variations because I have the melody in my head. I hope this is a little clearer why I use TAB. Take a song like "Take The A Train" I know the song so no tab necessary.[This message was edited by Richard Gonzales on 05 February 2005 at 06:18 PM.]

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 5 Feb 2005 6:32 pm

I would also like to mention, I think it is easier to backup a CD or band than it is to solo a complete song with command and feeling. Another thing I could never figure out is, when a newbie starts out, a lot of steelers say join a band. Hey, don't you have to learn to pick, volume control, chord progression, timing and etc. I think for a beginner to start off in a band would be embarrasing and demoralizing?[This message was edited by Richard Gonzales on 05 February 2005 at 06:34 PM.][This message was edited by Richard Gonzales on 05 February 2005 at 06:35 PM.]

Glyn Bone · Post by **Glyn Bone** » 5 Feb 2005 8:51 pm

G`day folks.
I`m no hotshot on the psg. but I started with Winnies book and a couple of De Witt Scotts books.....I would learn what I could from the TAB....once I had the chord sequence in my head and most of the melody then I`d close the book and " go it alone"...that way I don`t feel that I was trapping myself into being just a tab reader...and it is really amazing what you can find on your fretboard once you close that book and start using your ears...as I said..me no hotshot...but I am looking forward to getting back into it again...hopefull very soon.

Get the basics...then close the book..use your ears and imagination....a lot better IMHO.
2centsworth.

Glyndwr.

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 6 Feb 2005 1:37 am

I'm one of those steelers that tell newbies to go out and play to learn. The old saying, "one gig is worth 10 rehearsals." I learned from Winnie's book back in 1978, and it was invaluable. Then I got the steel on stage with my band way before I should have, and I sucked for a while, but the pressure of being on stage makes you learn faster. You have to realize that 90% of the "civilians" are just amazed to see a steel guitar on stage, and if you can fool your way through a song, they're delighted. Only the musicians in the crowd notice how good or bad you're playing. Tab is a tool to get you to where you need to be--playing in a band. Steel guitar is not an instrument to be played solo. You need backup musicians to bring it to its potential.

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Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 6 Feb 2005 3:21 am

It is very difficult for 'natural' musicians to appreciate the difficulties that beginners face. I'm not an arrogant person, but the next statement I make is difficult to put into words without seeming arrogant.
I was born lucky, I guess, as I seem to be able to get a tune out of quite an assortment of different musical instruments, and guitar playing comes quite naturally to me.
However, when I teach guitar, it brings home to me how lucky I am, as some people struggle with the very basics of a guitar.
I am sure that there are steel beginners who can only get by with Tab, and will struggle to get by without it.
A case in point: A relative of mine has played piano all her life. She has played the same tunes for 60 years, with the sheet music in front of her. If the sheet music is removed, she has to stop playing, as she is lost without it.
R B

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 6 Feb 2005 3:46 am

When I was a young man playing standup bass in a combo, all I ever needed was the song and key and off we go. Playing in a concert orchestra I needed to read music! I played in big bands and we read music !

The main thing is to enjoy what you are doing, learning notes,playing TAB, play by ear, figuring out tunings and etc. When you get bored, then you might explore other avenues. The pedal steel is a life long challange and remember your only competition is YOU!

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 6 Feb 2005 3:59 am

John McGann's take on this was also in another thread [can't recall right now]

BUT.....check it out!
www.johnmcgann.com/tab.html

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Feb 2005 4:41 am

A tad long but it may be worth it..but then again maybe not..

Against my better judgement I'm gonna comment..primarily because as I get older my good judgement remains back in the previous years..

here goes..and I pray I don't offend anyone.

Playing music is a gift . Some have been given an enormous gift, some a moderate gift, some a minimal gift and some..well..unfortunately..none at all...

But that does not keep everyone from wanting to play some music.. DESIRE is not a gift..

I suspect our Forum here..like many others covers the full range of "Gifting"...

I read many topics that make no sense to me..but obvioulsy they make sense to those that start them..
example:

"What settings do I use to make my Steel sound like Loyd or Buddy? "

"How do I make my Telecaster sound like Redd Volkaert? "

The answer to me is obvious.. " YOU don't"

This sounds really self serving and maybe it is..but the truth is if 'one' has to ask then 'one' really does not understand the whole picture.

It's the same with TAB.

Although I don't use TAB personally as a regular tool.. there are instances where I should..as a tool..like Winnie mentioned above..to learn where some other player may be taking the phrase from..which really equates to" Which scale position is he or she coming from"...

I recently traded some stuff with Michael Archer and received a Bruce Bouton talk tape thing..kinda like TAB but he just tells you what to do instead of writing it down. I listend to the entire tape..and low and behold..there it was..one part of a phrase that Bruce does so well..signature if you will...I took one part of the phrase and applied it to what I do..it has changed my entire approach and I have used Bruce's phrase to give my playing a face lift..

I'm sure if Bruce was here he would say " Thats not what I did " and I would say " Yeh it is..right here..part of it "..

Tab is a very valuable tool for new players and can also be a very valuable tool for experienced players..but there is a line.

The new player should one day wake up and all of a sudden look at the Steel, in it's most simple form and automatically relate the interval phrasing that the Instrument tunings, Pedals and Knee levers were intended and designed to do. This was not by accident.

Then from there as we listen to music at some point we must automatically understand and detect the Intervals of the songs we hear.

I'm talking simple here..not mainstream Jazz with intervals and cycles that are constantly changing within a song. I'm talkin Hank Willimas..

the so called "Sears and Roebuck " tunes...

Tab is a great starting point but at some point the musician must be able to relate what the TAB is telling you..and even more so..be able to relate to phrases that you hear on records which may be on some tab you have been studying either current or past.

The dots MUST be connected or else the player will be starting from scratch with each new tab they study. Basically starting from almost zero again.

Some players need NO TAB..ever..some need SOME tab sometimes....and ..well..some players will require TAB all the time.

If you are a TAB only player and feel you have connected the dots..try this

the next time you play the track where you are familiar with the tune and tab..run the track pitch up or down a half step or a whole step..then play over it..

If you are having trouble I would recommend this.
Write a simple chord chart,( imperative)

Play behind the track in simple chords until you understand the chord structure and intervals. then Start playing some of the TAB phrases a little at a time until you can feel it, you may already know it but changing keys will make you connect the dots to your Instrument. Nothing has changed but the Bar position and fret markers, everything else is constant. This would be I feel a very good excercise and will remove you from the MECHANICAL mode. Do this for as many tunes as you can.

I clearly make no claims as to being anything more than I am..but I don't care what key the band plays songs in..same key, different key..it's all the same..

I'm not an expert . Just ask my wife.

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 February 2005 at 04:50 AM.]

Sidney Ralph Penton · Post by **Sidney Ralph Penton** » 6 Feb 2005 4:47 am

well i look at tab music like this. for a beginner it is good. because it gives him a idea where the notes are. you have to have a idea on something before you can even get close to the idea. the only instruction i have gotten is from tab sheets, books and a couple tapes. if i didn't start on those things i would have had to drive 150 miles for lessons. so i feel that for me tab sheets was a good thing. and it helps you learn a song the correct way. as time goes on you can find the various locations for a note many places on the scale. but for a beginner i would have to say tab is a good thing. doc

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zum SD10 peavy vegas 400 peavy session 400
if its not a zum steel it isn't real

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 6 Feb 2005 4:52 am

Winnie, thank you for your book. It has been wonderful source of mine for the past 25 years. As a teacher in Philly you must have picked up on the differences between the design students; those who would spend hours sharpening pencils, buying the best straight edge and reading the instructions, and those who would just draw what was asked, even if they were a left handed paper smudger.
I work with very bright adult students now and some need the details and some just have to see the big picture. They both arrive at the same end point. I believe the tab issue is the same.
I agree. I have plenty of tab lying around, but I would rather have an audible base line and a pocket. I find the feeling is better than the exact lick because it has room to grow. The guitarist who has committed every one of Jeff’s 30 Intros to memory calls on a different resource when playing. Each brings quality to the table.
I know that you are not like the folkies and their fiddle tunes, (and you spent enough time with them) who would scrunch a face when, a grace note was missed. You went with Bill who could hear the future.
Those who need Tab to get where they are going will achieve the same as those who do not. They just do it the way their brain tells them.

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 6 Feb 2005 6:05 am

Tab is a big part of my memory.
I don't know how many times I have picked up or printed off my computer tablature for
a song that I had forgotten about, played it and said' " That's nice! I'm glad I kept that."
It goes further if you choose to share it with others. Tony Prior did that about a month ago by putting a speek pickin' exercise in a Forum Post. I ended up spending some enjoyable hours trying to learn it. He's in Charlotte, N.C ,I am several thousand miles away in Nova Scotia.
Tablature is a form of Telepathy.
It's the best form of communication we have
in my opinion.
That's my take.

Roy

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 6 Feb 2005 6:44 am

I will add this little addendum to my post about Tony's tab. By his own admission it
was more of a form of "hen-scratch"

But it worked for me.
If I was one to disregard tab for any reason
and somewhere back there chose not to learn it, I would have missed out on Tony's effort
,,,,which was well composed by the way.
I guess my point is ...tab goes well beyond the beginner. I have been playing for fifty years now and it is still an important part of my musical endeavours.
"Tab as a Tool" really bugs me.

RoyBoy

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Feb 2005 7:16 am

"Hen Scratchin"..now that I can relate to !

Roy you are way to kind..I'll send you money...

here's the link Roy is talkin' about..

Fortunately I can execute now..but I've had a month to practice too...these phrases are now lead in's to totally new phrases..it appears this nonsense never ends !

oh..and keep in mind this thing is at about 85 bpm..the real deal occurs at about 100 bpm or more..that is if it shows up...
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/008069.html

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 06 February 2005 at 07:23 AM.]

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 6 Feb 2005 7:43 am

To TAB or not to TAB, that is the question...whether 'tis nobler to deal with fly spec's on paper, or with numbers/characters.

Answer is...whatever turns your crank and starts your car!

As a kid in Halifax NS I went to about three of those group sessions using the number system. The first tunes were "You Are My Sunshine", Aloha Oe(veh?), etc. These were not the tunes that were IN with the crowd at the time.

Hank Snow tunes were in = Blue Ranger etc. on Bluebird records as I recall; so forget the numbers thing, and play with the record. Then get with the "gang" and we would rearrange the song(s)unintentionally..very creative lot we.

Turning sheet music into the number system for a 6 string lap steel tuning was no great feat, ..so I wondered why one should bother. Simply take the piano music and mark the string/fret numbers in that fashion on the sheet where it was needed for a clue. After you had played it a couple of times you would not need it anyway. Same thing for standard guitar.

The pedal steel presented a different problem, but not very; just add the pedal(s)/lever(s) below or above the staff lines, preferably by the chord symbol. I still use that method...it gives the timing also. This caused associating the frets/changes with the chords...learn by osmosis.

Nowadays, just transfer the method to the fake sheets/books if you need to "store it".

If BIAB or sim' would set it up so that the fret/string numbers could be added to the staff presentation, it would be nice.

TAB as written out by the BIG BOYS allows seeing their thinking process re the instrument. Neither tab nor staff music does the PSG/Steel justice (No, not Fred) re approaching, leaving, or morphing notes and chords.

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 6 Feb 2005 8:43 am

I tried the Music Staff with all the notations Ed and it is very cluttered
no matter how you try to set it in there.
I have put samples on the Forum of my efforts in that regard several times in the past.
It works very well for Classical Guitar
and I studied that for five years back in
the mid 80's and can read it fairly well.
The problem with Steel Guitar is that when
you add pedals and knee levers to the mix (music staff)it is confusing and slow to follow.

In the meantime, I will go with what Tony
does: "Here's an MP3 and here's the tab".
That seems to be the best we can do at present. Another alternative is the Eddie Alkire method. Are you familiar with that?
I love to hear you talk about Hank, Halifax
and Hawaiian Music Studios. I get the feeling sometimes you know more about my neck of the woods than I do.
Always nice to hear from you.

Roy