copedent question

[Derrick Unger]

Just got a MSA SD12..it has a pedal open and a upper knee lever open...I have no pull raising 1&7 to G's..should I put this on a pedal or lever?...I think this pull is usually on a lever.

[Lane Gray]

Depends on what else you have.
I don't raise 7,i lower 6 on the knee that raises 1 to G.
My extra pedal raises 1 and 2 to G# and E

[b0b]

Raising both F#'s to G is a good knee lever change. A bit old school, but still popular.

As for the open pedal, which pedal is it?

[Derrick Unger]

Hey Lane..thanks, I can always count on you for a reply..Just got this SD12..several of my previous steels had the F#'s to G pulls on a lever so I am kind of used to that and think I'll put that on a lever for now..and isn't pull on your extra pedal kinda for trick licks on strings 1&2??

[Derrick Unger]

I have pedal 5 open B0b...any suggestions?..I need to see if I can get a pic of my copedent chart and post it,

[Lane Gray]

It started out as trick licks, such as the intro to "He Didn't Have to Be", but modern steel vocabulary has kinda evolved into making extensive use of bending pairs of notes from harmony to unison or the reverse. The raise of 2 to E, along with the whole tone drop to C#, make for a handy and pretty neat melodic and harmonic device.
By putting it on a pedal, I can also hit the unison with 4,then pull 2 into a b7.

See this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XUykptG6DBQ

[b0b]

Probably the "Franklin pedal" would be a good choice there on P5. Lower 5, 6 and 10 a whole step.

[Derrick Unger]

going to try to post my copedents if it works..just moved the 9th string d to c# on the upper knee lever to
RKL along with the d# to d..freed up the upper knee lever and peddle 5..am going to put the f#'s to g's on the upper knee lever..then consider b0Bs suggestion on pull for peddle 5...GUYS..any other ideas or sugestions?

[Lane Gray]

I'd move the B lower to the LKV.
I'd put the 12th string drop to LKL RKL, raise 1 to G, and either drop 6 and 11 to F# or raise 7 also to G.

[Derrick Unger]

Hey Lane...gonna take me the rest of the night to sort through all that..but really...thanks..getting ready to place a order for parts..gonna have to update it..also waiting for a 5-40 die to thread some new pull rods.

[Lane Gray]

I'd also suggest either a Sho-Bud rod and barrels or a Bradshaw gizmo, so you can have the A pedal, C pedal and a tunable split of the A pedal and A# lever.
Sho-Bud rods are easier to install

[Lane Gray]

For your perusal, the copedent on my MSA Extended E9th

[b0b]

[tab]
LKL LKV LKR P0 PA PB PC PF RKL RKR
F# +G
D# -C# -D
G# +A
E +F -D# +F#
B -A# +C# +C# -A
G# +A -F#
F# +G
E +F -D#
D -C#
B +C# -A
G# +A
E -C# -D
[/tab]

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Raising both F#'s to G is a good knee lever change.

I agree. And I think the change belongs on the vertical.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

I'd move the B lower to the LKV.

Lane, with all due respect, I disagree with you. Vertical knee levers are hard to use, and putting the B lower there means many players won't explore its many uses.

The B string lower is highly misunderstood. It has many more uses than a lot of players realize. But in order to learn them, you need to really play around with the change and do a lot of experimenting, and you're not going to do that if the change is not easy to use.

I find it useful when used in conjunction with both the E string raises and lowers. For that reason I recommend that those be on the same leg.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

I'd put the 12th string drop to LKL

I agree with this. Putting the change on the same knee lever that raises the other 2 E strings to F gives you a nice bass note for the C# chord made with the A-pedal F raise combination.

HOWEVER, keeping it the way it is also gives you the bass not for the C# minor chord. Something to think about.

I drop the low E string (the 11th string on mu u-12,) twice, on 2 different knee levers, so I can get the bass notes for both the major and minor chords.

[Ian Rae]

I know this is not what Derrick asked, but just to throw another spanner in...

If I got my hands on a guitar like that I'd set it up as a uni:-

[Derrick Unger]

Thanks Guys For the responses'...I have started and am going to use a little from b0bs,,Lanes and Mikes ideas..going to make a G lever..going to put the "B" to A# pull on a lever..sorry Mike..that is just because what is already being done to the B strings make me cringe to think about moving all that stuff around..Finally I think i'll use the Franklin on pedal 1 or 5..And Lane..I think I will have a spot for a pull for strings 1 and 2..I just ordered parts today to complete this stuff..I have made 3 changes already and have the 8th string E not exactly returning to pitch after a E to D# lower..a bump on the e raise takes it to pitch..any ideas..my first thought is not enough slack in pull train???? finger not returning to finger stop plate...just the most minute pressure on finger puts it against stop..39 yr old guitar..could it possibly be wore out spring?

[Derrick Unger]

Hey Ian..A universal setup is not out of question..especially on a day setup like yours..I have a 10 string on the day setup..only thing I would change on yours uni would be E raise and lower..on my 10 string I have the e to d# lower on the lkl and the e to f raise on the lkr..reason is simply when you move the bar to left on neck it lowers your note, why not put it on lkl and visa versa raise on lkr which raises e to f..I can't believe this is not standard Emmons..IMHO..left on neck lowers notes, right on neck raises

[Lane Gray]

Is it returning sharp or flat?
It's unlikely that the return spring is weak; they're overly strong as it is.
Rivet behaving? Maybe a bit of dirt on the stop bar? A bit of that behavior is common: Bruce Z and Paul Sr developed a misnamed compensator

[Derrick Unger]

Lane..its my E lower and it comes back just slightly flat.
If I just bump my F knee lever it brings it back to dead on.
if I push the finger from underneath after activating the lever (and I mean push it like a feather) it is dead on..I just added a third bellcrank and pull to this lever..I can't say the spring is weak, but it acts like if it had just a fraction more pull on the spring it would be fine.
I have had 4 pull and release steels..completely different setup than a all pull changer..and this is probably the hardest setup to make..working with all the E's..raising and lowering..I still think I could have something not totally releasing(not enough slack to the changer)to allow the finger complete return to the stop bar.

[Lane Gray]

Here's how the "drop return compensator" (I think I'd rather call it a "drop return regulator") works.
Run a rod from an unused lower hole to a stationary point. You can put a bellcrank on an unused shaft; Bruce secured it to the cross*strap. Between the nylon nut and the scissor, put a small rubber O-ring.
It appears that returning from the drop may cause the scissor to overshoot the story bat, and the O-ring cushions the last millimeter of return, so it stops at the right place.

[Ian Rae]

Hey Ian..A universal setup is not out of question..especially on a day setup like yours..I have a 10 string on the day setup..only thing I would change on yours uni would be E raise and lower..on my 10 string I have the e to d# lower on the lkl and the e to f raise on the lkr..

That's totally logical on a single-neck E9, but on the uni you need complete freedom of movement of your left leg with the Es lowered, so RKR seems the only option. As to where you then put the F lever, that's personal - you're either a same-knee or an opposite-knee person.

[Derrick Unger]

Thanks Ian..Thats what makes this forum great..I have never sat behind a Universal..but I have looked at the different copedents like the one you suggested..but I would have no idea that a misplaced lever..per say.. would give me problems..sorry..that doesn't sound right..I do try to look that far ahead..Its just that someone with experience can point something out and save another a lot of time and effort.and FRUSTRATION!!

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

... on the uni you need complete freedom of movement of your left leg with the Es lowered, so RKR seems the only option.

Not necessarily. I lower my Es on my LKR, and I have no problem hitting the B6 pedals, although I rarely use them.

I had the chance on the RKL at one time, but decided I preferred it on the LKR.

There is no reason not to put the E lowers on the right knee, it's purely a matter of personal preference.