2-piece Sierra bellcranks?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Nov 2016 11:52 am

In a recent discussion of Sierras and working on same, someone mentioned a 2-piece bellcrank that clamped around the shaft, eliminating the need to pull the shaft.
Andrew has one shaft where the mild steel collar appears to have galvanized itself to the stainless shaft.
Jim Palenscar was credited as the vendor of these cranks, but he said "never heard of them." Andrew wishes to add some pulls to the lever with the offending recalcitrant collar, and it seems wasteful to cut the shaft.
Does anyone know either:
1) who makes these bellcranks, or;
2) how to remove the stuck collar?

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 2 Nov 2016 12:07 pm

If the owner is not too fussy about retaining originality, it's very easy to make add-on bell cranks with basic tools eg. hacksaw, drill, vice, and (those of a sensitive disposition look away now) a big hammer

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 2 Nov 2016 12:12 pm

PM sent

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 2 Nov 2016 5:57 pm

I have had Sierras' for the past 15 years ( currently own 3) and have never seen the Sierra bell cranks you are referring too.

I had an MSA that did have that type of bell crank...the bottom section of the base could be loosened and swiveled to the side permitting the bell crank to be removed. These bell cranks were for round shafts.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Nov 2016 8:57 pm

I just remembered who said they have them. I must call Cuz Garver in the morning. He swore it was Jim who sold them, but his only guitar is a gold-tone 14 string Sierra.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 3 Nov 2016 5:50 am

Lane,

From the early 1990's to early 2000's, I owned a 1983, gearless, Sierra "Crown" (SCM14), 14-string guitar with 8p/7k. It was built by Bill Stafford and may have been a type of early version of the "Stafford Elegant" model. I say that because Bill put some non-standard (and very logical) changes on the copedant that ended up being the copedant on the "Stafford Elegant" model. One change in particular was to have the standard 7th pedal (common to the C6th tuning) on a knee lever, and then having the 7th pedal raise the G# (A on a C6th tuning) an half-step. For me, I found that change eliminated half-pedaling the 4th pedal to get a dominant 7th.

Anyway, at that time, I made myself aware of any new wrinkles in the copedant that Bill added to his own guitar and I would add them to mine. Whenever I wanted to make such additions, I would buy the components from Sierra Instruments. The bell cranks were all two-piece, which made it super simple to add to or modify the copedant. The pull rod slots were on the main part of the bell crank and the portion that fastened to the cross rods was split. I could add to or modify the copedant in minutes.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 3 Nov 2016 6:42 am

Pretty great life- learning something new is wonderful

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Nov 2016 10:12 am

Yes.
Tom Baker made them and I have seen them.
I may have one around here.
Don Christianson showed me one at the shop one day, and the idea was that he took a Bell Crank (for round cross shafts) and cut the top half of the cross rod hole off.
It then had threaded holes and screws so you could add a Bellcrank to a round cross-shaft "In the Field" as he would say.
Hey Tony if there is more to the story, please share here.

Andrew Wright · Post by **Andrew Wright** » 3 Nov 2016 10:52 am

I'm excited by the direction the conversation is going! All of the potential routes to getting the rod loose seem quite a bit less appealing than a simple economic transaction with whomever might be a source of those magic two piece cranks!

Thanks to all who have contributed...

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Nov 2016 12:16 pm

I'm waiting for the pics, but Cuz said he's pretty sure that they came from Don at Sierra.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 3 Nov 2016 1:43 pm

Must have been after my stint @ Sierra (76-78). I never saw any. I cursed those bellcranks many a time & 2-piecers would have been very helpful.

At the time the bellcranks had a little strut between the left an right halves for stability , so all pull rods passing through the crank had to be backed out first. Then, if it wasn't too congested with undercarriage hardware, you could tap/pry out (not remove) the plastic bushings enough to gain some wiggle room and tilt the cross shaft enough to slide collars & bellcranks on or off.

I did discuss square or hex crosshafts and open bellcranks with Don, but he wasn't too interested in retooling at the time.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Nov 2016 5:35 pm

I looked thru a bunch of Sierrra part boxes but couldn't find one.
I have some round cross-shaft stuff because I have a Crown model Sierra.
Maybe Bill can get a pic of one?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Nov 2016 6:54 pm

Cuz says he has one on his A pedal, and says he'll send Mr a picture shortly. I'm intrigued, and will share the pics as soon as I get them.

manny escobar · Post by **manny escobar** » 4 Nov 2016 5:13 am

The two guitars that I built in the eighties and nineties have MSA type round cross shafts. The 2 piece bell cranks are upside down T shapes with a screw on the right and the left as apposed to the single L shape type.

Derrick Unger · Post by **Derrick Unger** » 5 Nov 2016 6:46 pm

There was a fellow that made a post right after the first of the year..he made 2 piece bellcranks and wondered if there would be any demand for them..if there was he would make some for sale...I emailed him for details but didn't get a response..that post could be found by a search I think.

Andrew Wright · Post by **Andrew Wright** » 5 Nov 2016 6:54 pm

Hmm - I couldn't find any search terms that worked. Probably a moot point if he never replied the first time around, but I appreciate the lead!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 6 Nov 2016 12:32 pm

Andrew, Cuz sent me the pics. His guitar was new in 83, and the Sierra-made 2-piece bellcranks were purchased in 87.
I shall post the pictures soon. They look a LOT like a regular Sierra bellcrank, and the second screw hides between the vertical legs.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 6 Nov 2016 12:45 pm

Here. Clever folks at Sierra

It doesn't look out of place to me, but on closer look:

And a better look:

Andrew Wright · Post by **Andrew Wright** » 7 Nov 2016 6:53 am

Unicorns DO exist!

Barring an unexpected find of a trove of unused ones from that era of the Sierra factory, I'm guessing my best bet is to round up enough interested parties that it would be worthwhile for somebody to make them again.

Did make contact with the gentleman who had originally discussed making two piece bell cranks. Now I just need some other prospective buyers - anybody?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 7 Nov 2016 7:01 am

I'm not a machinist, but I bet someone could convert a standard bellcrank.
Take Sierra bellcrank; drill a hole between the legs; put the gap between the two halves in a band saw, cut the bottom half free; cut threads in the bottom half; ream the top half of the new hole.
In fact, that almost looks like what they did

Derrick Unger · Post by **Derrick Unger** » 7 Nov 2016 7:55 pm

Hey Andrew..if you made contact with that fellow any chance of some pics or more detail on bellcranks..there are some smart guys on here that probably have good ideas..(Lane)..I think it would have to be a universal bellcrank...might not look pretty..but could be functional on a variety of steels.

Andrew Wright · Post by **Andrew Wright** » 15 Nov 2016 7:21 pm

Success! Kinda.

So I didn't turn up any two piece bell cranks. But I DID finally loosen the collar and remove the shaft from my RKR so I could put the second (regular) bell crank on there.

Of course the bell crank that HAD been on there was also seized, and in knocking it loose I think I fundamentally weakened it...because when I had things back together, I over-tightened its screw and promptly busted it. But I finally knocked it off of there and put another one on, and I think I finally have the dumb knee pedal working.

This steel guitar mechanic thing is harder than it looks. Ugh.

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 16 Nov 2016 6:10 am

There is an anti-seize lubricant available by "Permatex". Tom Baker of Sierra told me about it as a way to prevent aluminum bell-cranks and leg sockets on the Sierra' from seizing...works very well. It would work any aluminum parts regardless of brand of steel.

Andrew Wright · Post by **Andrew Wright** » 19 Nov 2016 4:15 pm

SO FRUSTRATED!!!

Ok - I've got some parts on order that ostensibly were going to allow me to complete setup. No 2 piece bell cranks to be found, but that's fine because I got the trouble shaft loose.

And then this.

I go to add a second bell crank to my LKL. And the shaft doesn't line up with the slots in the body of the steel...and the amount of play I can get without actually going through the slot isn't enough to remove the collar on the other end of the shaft or to fit another bell crank on.

I'm starting to hate this thing.

So I guess I either have to find a 2 piece bell crank after all, or do without one of the standard changes, or take apart the whole cabinet. AAARGH.

Andrew Wright · Post by **Andrew Wright** » 19 Nov 2016 4:39 pm

I'm an idiot. Just had to remove the plastic sleeve thing and then there was enough play to make it through that slot. Good thing I have a mechanically-inclined wife...

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2-piece Sierra bellcranks?

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