Push Pulls for sale

Larry Hamilton · Post by **Larry Hamilton** » 12 Oct 2016 2:56 pm

I have noticed a big uptick in the number of PP's for sale. I'm kind of curious why. This causes me a a dilemma ðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€. I want to jump on one but have a couple questions. I tried to play a LeGrande ll for several years but being a "Day Way" player I just couldn't get it to fit ergonomically. Just looking at pictures of the pedals with wider spacing they look a bit further to the left which is good. Am I just seeing things? I know there are many great PP mechanics in a Texas. I'm from Amarillo but not opposed to have a guitar drop shipped somewhere, even other than Texas depending on where I get it, to be set up to my specs. What might be a ballpark figure for such work and approximate cost of adding and/or moving knee levers. I realize there is no set cost but a range would be helpful, helping me to make a decision on which guitar I might decide on.

I'm 64 years young, been playing over 40 years, play nearly every weekend since retirement and would hate to go to my grave not at least trying out a PP.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Keep pickin', Larry. Amarillo, Texas

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 12 Oct 2016 6:31 pm

Larry, I'm little confused. Were you playing a LeGrande that had and Emmons set-up? I understand you're Day set-up player.

Having a tad bit longer cabinet. The Lashley LeGrande's pedals are a tad bit further to the left than a PP as I remember. My PP is closet dweller and I'm to lazy to dig it out. So I'll let those who have both confirm pedal spacing.

Speaking only for myself. Playing a PP is like driving a 65 Corvette. I'd love to have one. But drive it every day. No.

However, If you really want a PP? Buy one. I'm sure you can afford it, and life can short. If you don't believe me? Just read the Gone Home section from time to time.

Best of luck whatever you decide.
b.

john buffington · Post by **john buffington** » 12 Oct 2016 7:03 pm

I have both a 70 & 74 p/p, and also a '96 LeGrande III. The p/p's have that "something" that no other guitar has for my ears tone wise. They do feel different than an all pull, if I had to choose, it would be p/p's hands down. Just for me - only!

Larry Hamilton · Post by **Larry Hamilton** » 12 Oct 2016 7:38 pm

Bobby, my LeGrande had the Day setup, it just seemed like the pedals were a little too far to the right. I probably let the guitar play me, not me play the guitar. I just couldn't always roll completely off the pedals. Wasn't the lack of adjusting or trying. I played an MSA for over 20 years before going Emmnons. The Emmons had the best tone I ever had, just couldn't play the darn thing.
I had a Sho Bud Super Pro and really liked it. Yeah like driving a classic car for sure. Sho Bud tone to the proverbial bone, but sold it to get a G2.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 12 Oct 2016 8:03 pm

Yeah, I'm with John B on this one. To my ears, nothing tops a p/p - there's just something about it.
And one that's set up well will play very nice...even if it's not as butter-smooth as a modern all-pull.
As far as Emmons vs Day setup, I don't believe there's really any reason why you couldn't be totally comfortable with a Day setup on a p/p.
When I first got my p/p, it was Day, and I had to wait a couple weeks before I got it switched to Emmons. In those few weeks, I got pretty comfortable and used to the Day Way.
Point being, if you want to try out a p/p, just go for it. It's my "daily driver".

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 12 Oct 2016 9:19 pm

Larry, are you sure you're LeGrande pedals started in standard 1st pedal LeGrande position? I ask only because I've seen a couple that were custom ordered for the 1st pedal to be in the standard 2nd pedal position. Hope this makes sense.

Most all of the 8 pedal Carters, and Williams I've seen. The pedals started further to the right than the standard 8 pedal LeGrandes. I think it was an option on Carters. Because all the 9 pedal Carters I've seen, started as far to the left as the guitar would allow. Which to me, seemed very similar to the LeGrandes.

I've gone from G2's to LeGrandes and vise versa, and the distance to pedal 1 never crossed my mind. Maybe my old body's just to far gone to notice the minor things. However I did notice and prefer the design of the G2 pedals. Sweet-

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 12 Oct 2016 10:47 pm

Larry,

As for any "Up tick in PP sells", I have some thoughts.
I am only speaking from my experience of having had an Emmons for several months and playing those belonging to several of my friends.

My ears did not hear "the sound" a lot of guys swear by. Secondly, I never felt confident enough to try to change the copedent on one; too many little parts and round crossroads to deal with . Let's face it, Beijing does not have any push-pull mechanics or even pedal steels that I know of. If I were in the USA the guitar might also need to be shipped to a qualified PP mechanic at additional cost or damage. Thirdly, they are rather heavy.

Also, with the addition of so many excellent all-pull choices and the Promat PP presently available, Emmons steels also have more competition. In short, players area buying those other steels too.

In addition to the increase in supply of theall-pulls, the Emmons company produced many guitars over time thus adding to the supply of steels.

Perhaps too, this is just an anomaly and over the next several months we may see few Emmons PPs offered for sale. Be interesting to see if what Larry refers to now is a trend or just as short term thing.

I'm sure there will continue to be players happy to purchase used Emmons steels.
As for me, I will travel the all-pull road for reasons mentioned. Stevet

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 13 Oct 2016 4:19 am

Larry..One more detail that may bear mentioning. The early model P/P's were the guitars that featured the wide, flat pedals. The later production models were fitted with the Legrande style pedals so the ergonomics may feel much the same as playing your all pull.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Oct 2016 4:54 am

well, I own a D10 Legrande II and two D10 Push Pulls, 81 and 85. I like playing them all.

The Legrande II and one of the Push Pulls have the same Peds and spacing. The other P Pull has the previous pedal rack .

P Pulls do not feel the same as the L-II and shouldn't, one has 14 hole bell cranks the others are a totally different design which is based on several factors that all work together. Basically P Pulls have some slop built in, they are not exact like a L-II can be. But they can be real close.

learning to setup a P Pull is not that big of a deal, sure it's not as straight forward as the ALL PULL. Just remember that with Push Pulls,many things can contribute to the action and setup of one raise or lower. Once set up though they are extremely robust and rarely change. It's a brilliant design.

My favorite guitar to play is the 81 Push Pull, but I do bring out the L-II often, it to is a fine player. The 85 also is a fine player but I don't bring it out for gig duty, it has been more of a home studio fixture. It's currently for sale .

I'm selling the 85 not because it isn't a fine axe, it really is, but I am thinking of yet another P Pull down the road, maybe an older one, late 60's early 70's, if I can find one. The 85 could easily be for a "one guitar" family.

I seriously doubt anyone is selling one because it's a lousy guitar ! Regarding tone, yes, they are unique,they have a certain growl that jumps up and bites you. Some never hear it, some hear it sometimes, some hear it ALL the time. I hear it ALL the time and find myself playing in those sweet zones often. Who can say why.

Mark Hershey · Post by **Mark Hershey** » 13 Oct 2016 5:04 am

You should by all means buy a PushPull. If you want an affordable PP look for the Emmons Black Rock.

My .02 on the whole PP thing and this coming from a guy that hasn't tried out that many steels besides his own PP. In the six string world there's a variety of wonderful guitars and amps that can make amazing tone. I'd find it a bit depressing if there's only one pedal steel that is superior to all others. I think tone is subjective and there's times where I think the ShoBud has the best tone ever. Then other days the ZB...Then I throw on a Flying Burrito Brothers album and think wow the old Fender has the best tone. On the Letterman show I've seen Show Pros and even a GFI that sounded unbelievable that made me want to put in an order.

Bottom line if you want it buy a PP they are an awesome choice.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 13 Oct 2016 6:45 am

Larry, I play a push pull most of time and I'm a Day setup player. I've also got a LeGrand SKH and I much prefer the feel of the push pull. A properly set up P/P has the feel that I like and prefer. Thru the years I've gone back and forth between all sorts of guitars but always go back to the push pull and not because of the tone which is excellent but because of the feel. I think you should take a venture and try one. You may be like me or you may hate them.

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 13 Oct 2016 7:23 am

I have been hanging around the forum for several years and for sale items then to have a cycle to them. One brand will appear to get lots of attention for a time and then it is something else that is in favor.

I played a PP for about a dozen years and then moved onto Zum for the past 20 or so years. It was a good guitar but does require a tad more maintenance than an all pull guitar. Would not mind having another one around one of these days. There are lots of very nice guitars available these days.

Robert

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Oct 2016 7:37 am

I think the spacing of the pedals depends on how the guitar is set up. I have a p/p that once belonged to Doug Jernigan. I came from the factory with 11 foot pedals, and believe me, they are as far to the left and as close together as you can get!

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 13 Oct 2016 7:41 am

I had to put helper springs on my push-pull as I found it too tiring to play when it had the regular factory setup.
I also removed the pedal-return springs, and the pesky little compression springs that made everything feel 'spongy'

That was 25 years ago, and it's still my main axe

Larry Hamilton · Post by **Larry Hamilton** » 13 Oct 2016 8:01 am

Hey guys thanks for the great information. I am rereading it several times. Hey Bobby B. Thinking back I believe the first pedal was in the left most position. I bought it new from Bobby S. so ifigure it was all stock and not special order. I hope I'm not being too anal about the pedal position and just play the dang thing. I'm one of those with kinda big feet plus getting older with ankles that aren't quite as good as they used to be. Not making excuses just things I have to learn to work around.

Knowing a PP is a whole other animal if I do acquire one I hope y'all will continue helping and advising me. I know there are many posts and articles concerning mechanics, tuning, etc. but sometimes someone can explain something more understandable. I feel like a newbie concerning this stuff. Thanks again guys. Keep any and all info coming as I do study it and it helps.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 13 Oct 2016 8:34 am

A well set up p/p rarely needs adjustment, and minimal maintenance is all that's really necessary.

Dave Meis · Post by **Dave Meis** » 13 Oct 2016 8:55 am

Do it! I got my 'first' PP a couple of months ago, and I'm sorry I waited so long!

I was lucky and bought mine from a PP mech. that offed to set it up my way (E's on the right, the way God intended), and since then I've changed a few things on it, including moving the pedal assembly to the right within the pedal bar (re-arranged the spacers), and I love everything about it, except carrying it. They can be set up to fit you, like any guitar! As mentioned above, life can be short!

Mark Hershey · Post by **Mark Hershey** » 13 Oct 2016 8:58 am

Skip Edwards wrote:A well set up p/p rarely needs adjustment, and minimal maintenance is all that's really necessary.

I will counter this with this point, I'm an awful mechanic on my PP. I'm completely lost under there.

I bough Al's pedal steel mechanics video that goes over all pull and briefly over PP. The all pull made sense to me I have no clue what I'm doing with a PP. I can tune it and that's about it.

I've had two mechanical issues and the only option I had was to drive it to John Widgren who is amazing.

I salute all of you that can fix or set up the PP. I'm sure it is easy once you figure a few things, but it's not intuitive to a lot of us.

I will also add, whenever I've had an issue I've come here and the advice I receive is amazing. I think if you do have some skill mechanically you will definitely find great advice here and people willing to help.

Edit: I just want to add, even though some of us have problems underneath the PP you should still own it. I met two pp players while I lived in Brooklyn and all of us were content to head up to John for repairs.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 13 Oct 2016 12:20 pm

Mark, I hear ya...
I don't work on my p/p, nor do I want to. I'm sure I'd just screw it up if I did. Actually, years ago I did exactly that on my first p/p. These days I'm happy to just play it.
Like Clint - as Dirty Harry - said, "A good man knows his limitations".

Mark Hershey · Post by **Mark Hershey** » 13 Oct 2016 12:42 pm

Skip Edwards wrote:Mark, I hear ya...
I don't work on my p/p, nor do I want to. I'm sure I'd just screw it up if I did. Actually, years ago I did exactly that on my first p/p. These days I'm happy to just play it.
Like Clint - as Dirty Harry - said, "A good man knows his limitations".

Yep. I think a collar went loose on my steel last year. The C pedal was way off and would not get in tune. Some member on the forum gave me expert advice and I was still so lost under there. I felt like I was going to just make things worse.

You are correct once set up it's a very stable guitar and plays great. I've had about 2 issues and owned it over 3 years. You pretty much have two routes, either learn to work on it or get it to a mechanic.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 13 Oct 2016 1:06 pm

I've been playing push pulls for over 40 years. I must say though, not all push pulls are created equal. Some have more growl than others. Some have a very thin tone, others have a more mid range tone. I've owned several of them and my current one (for the past 12 years or so) is a 1975 S-10, rosewood. To my ears it has just the right amount of growl. And it has that push pull "zing" that is Not heard in modern PSGs. Especially ones with humbucking pickups.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 13 Oct 2016 1:56 pm

I've been playing push pulls for over 40 years. I must say though, not all push pulls are created equal. Some have more growl than others. Some have a very thin tone, others have a more mid range tone

Now we're getting somewhere. Doug wrote what I was thinking.

However I don't get why folks get all bent when PP's get out of adjustment. In time Collar's slip, compression springs break, it's going to happen. These guitars were designed in mid to late 1963. But much improved since late 64 to early 65. Still the same basic principle. Ron and Buddy never intended for folks to have to send their PP's to a steel tech every-time a collar slipped or a compression spring became worn or broken. It's really caveman mechanics. Beside's in the very early days. There were no PP techs other than the Emmons shop. They didn't want folks to have to send their guitar cross country to replace a compression spring and re-adjust a collar. Nuff said. Sorry I rambled into this.

Larry it's clear you want one. I think you should go for it. Maybe buy from a tech and stay away from those with Legrande style pedals.

About the pedal spacing. It just occurred to me. The LII's have the same pedal spacing as the original short body-short- keyed LeGrandes. The PP's are even shorter than the original Legrande's

All that to say the 1st pedal on a 8 pedal PP will be about and inch and 1/4 further to the left than the long body Legrandes. However, a PP is about 1 and 5/8 shorter than the long body Legrandes. So not a lot of difference.

Best of luck to you.
b.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 13 Oct 2016 4:40 pm

there is a push pull. and then there are all the others

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 13 Oct 2016 6:52 pm

Larry, I say GO for it. Send it to my friend here on the forum Henry Matthews and let him set it up Day style. He plays Day Style and understands how it should work. He recently had a 69 Black Emmons that had the most awesome sound you ever heard. I am sure he wishes he still had it. It took me a lifetime to hear what the Emmons sound is but once you hear it nothing else takes it's place. Best of luck, J.R.

Asa Brosius · Post by **Asa Brosius** » 13 Oct 2016 8:17 pm

Doug B- you mention the 'growl' of a pp. I've played a few briefly, and I've heard the term used here often. Could you (or anybody) tell me what that means?