Tuning -- what am I missing?

[Brint Hannay]

- Problem is that to get perfect "JI" tuning on any instrument one would have to retune the instrument every time one changes key, as the perfect natural scale based on fractions only adds up optimally for one key at a time -

Though I do agree that getting a steel in tune is a BEAR, this statement puzzles me.

It would seem that if one has the instrument tuned such that the intervals are acceptable with the strings open, getting these chords then to play in tune chromatically up the neck would be just a matter of diligent bar placement.

Georg's statement about retuning an instrument to play in different keys applies in the abstract, but not so much to the idiosyncrasies of the pedal steel guitar.

On PSG, actually playing in different keys is indeed accomplished by moving the bar. Most any E9th tuning and copedent can only play in at most a couple of keys at one fret. All the debate is precisely about getting "the instrument tuned such that the intervals are acceptable with the strings open".

As to tuning systems, there is a system that in my opinion works very well, constituting a compromise between the fully "sweetened" JI tunings and ET, and because it is a consistent system, is remarkably free of problems--no "This particular chord must be avoided because it sounds bad"--as long as the ear finds the consistent intervals, as you say, acceptable. My ear does--I think it sounds very nice. It's called "meantone tuning" (actually technically "Sixth-comma meantone", but discussed here on the Forum as just "meantone").

Not many here apparently use it, but I don't know why. I think in discussion it sounds to people as though it's complicated, but in use it's just a chart of numbers like all the others. It would be easy to program into one of those programmable tuners (I think--I don't have one of those, I just have the settings in my head).
These are the numbers for E9, as supplied by b0b:

[tab]lower open raise
F# 0 G +12.5
D +10 D# -7.5
G# -5 A +7.5
D# -7.5 E +5 F -12.5 F# 0
A# -10 B +2.5 C# -2.5
G# -5 A +7.5
F# 0
D# -7.5 E +5 F -12.5
C# -2.5 D +10
B +2.5 C# -2.5 [/tab]

There's a lot of discussion of the theory of it in this thread--probably the kind of thing that puts people off it, but bottom line, it's just a chart of settings like any other:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

I suggest: Try it, you might like it!

[Georg Sørtun]

- Problem is that to get perfect "JI" tuning on any instrument one would have to retune the instrument every time one changes key, as the perfect natural scale based on fractions only adds up optimally for one key at a time -

Though I do agree that getting a steel in tune is a BEAR, this statement puzzles me.

Short answer is that "the JI fractions in any one key doesn't map exactly with the JI fractions in any other key."
You can extract a more elaborate answer on Just Intonation Explained.

Brint's response covers the rest well enough for comfort - mine at least

[Glenn Demichele]

I happen to agree with Brint. Meantone is the only thing that really worked for me, and it's programmed in my Peterson now. I have tried ET, and piles of different JI modifications. ET always sounded bad to me, especially when playing alone. The main problem I had with the various forms of JI was that my bar needed to be different places relative to the fret mark for different pedal combinations (like A/F was the furthest). Trying to make the corrections on the fly screwed me up psychologically (I'm a fretless bass player)and I could never seem to land right. Meantone fixed all that immediately.

[Ian Rae]

The main problem I had with the various forms of JI was that my bar needed to be different places relative to the fret mark for different pedal combinations (like A/F was the furthest).

Now I'm a trombone player and I can suck that up all day! The nominal slide positions are slightly different for different notes, so I handle JI on the steel just fine.
I guess it all depends where you come from

[Stuart Legg]

Playing out of tune gives the PSG soul, depth as in that recognizable butt pucker like you're falling from a tall building with non-harmonic slides that coincide perfectly with your descent.
Why ruin all that with a $200 tuner?

[Mark McCornack]

Good point. After decades of playing fretted instruments, my ears are jaded there too. Intonation is comprimised in the truest sense there, but your ears accept the pain, or just lie to you and say its all good. I know there is no "holy grail" to tuning the PSG, just curious which of the lesser evils is generally accepted.

Doesn't it ever bother you though how there are a handful of PSG players on the planet who actualy MAKE the instrument sound in tune

Sorcery, I say

[Peter Nylund]

I think my guitar has a tampered tuning

[Georg Sørtun]

Give me an "A"...

...and I'll mess up the rest by ear

[Richard Keller]

I found that my Peterson StroboPlus HD tuner comes with the Meantone Comma Sixth tuning built in. It is the 6MT sweetener. I am going to try it tonight and compare to my current tuning. Right now I use a custom sweetener that I added to the tuner after tuning by harmonics.

[Glenn Demichele]

I'm interested to hear what you think. I didn't have that preset in my stomp classic

[b0b]

If you're scared by complexity, maybe pedal steel isn't for you.

[DG Whitley]

In talking with folks over the years, I've just accepted whatever method I used to tune whether if be Jeff Newman's chart, Meantone 6, Tuning out the beats methods, whatever, it is all just a compromise. No method addresses all the "wolf tones" that might be out there. One method may work for majority of combinations, but may sound totally sour for others. You just have to pick your battles and use what works best for what you play, my 2 cents worth at least.

So I'm trying Al Brisco's method of tuning out the beats and see how well that works for the type of gospel music I play. I sort of like the logic of it so I'll see how it goes.

[Lane Gray]

Set your tuner to ET (assuming you have a tuner with a needle or virtual needle).
Tune the Es.
Tune the beats out.
Compare the notes with your tuner.
Write down the deviations for each note.

Now you have your own tuning chart, which you can use to tune silently.

[Roger Palmer]

Set your tuner to ET (assuming you have a tuner with a needle or virtual needle).
Tune the Es.
Tune the beats out.
Compare the notes with your tuner.
Write down the deviations for each note.

Now you have your own tuning chart, which you can use to tune silently.

Do you tune the E's pedals down Lane?

Ive found tuning the beats out is a lot easier using headphones

[Lane Gray]

Pedals up or pedals down is a matter of personal preference.
To hear the beats even better, give it some fuzz/overdrive

[b0b]

Tuning your E reference note with pedals down will get you closer to the band's tuning, because cabinet drop and JI thirds are flat of ET. But it doesn't make any difference if you rarely use open strings, and the difference is only a few cents anyway.

Like Lane said, personal preference.

[Henry Matthews]

Tuning everything to 440 just makes better sense but I've tried it numerous times on several different guitars with several different bands and it just won't work for my ears. I tune e's to 442 by tuner and then tune to them with no wobbles I call it, except for 7th string, just have to find a happy medium for it.
Never have understood why 440 tuning won't work when playing with or with out a band because guitars and bass tune to 440, beats me. I'm sure some of you may have a musical or scientific reason but it may just be my ears.

[Georg Sørtun]

For reference more than anything, I have observed that when I transpose this old 16th century tuning to my PSG "tune out beats" E9 tuning...

...I landed nicely on the exact same fractions - including the best sounding variants of the "two-pitch" notes needed to play near-perfect JI-intervals in any key. A couple of "two pitch" compensator rods made it easier, but there are other alternatives.

Since the "natural scale intervals" (JI) will sound the same to everyone (no use trying to beat nature), I have more or less concluded that all who try to tune and play JI will end up with variants of the old tuning-compromise.


Another observation is that I move the bar to pitch dominant note(s) by ear, for just about every note(s) I pick. The timing of this "pitching notes on-the-fly" is perfect as long as I play a PSG I'm familiar with - faster than ear so to speak because of "muscle-memory", but an unfamiliar PSG with unknown-to-me body-drop characteristics and/or copedent will throw my perfect timing off every time

[Glenn Demichele]

Good point George! That is something I forgot to mention about bar position. My head tunes on the fly to one pitch in a chord (I don't consciously know which one sometimes). My head will tune the dominant pitch perfectly, but I really needed it to be tuned slightly flat or sharp(depending on pedals and which chord inversion), to make the entire chord sound in tune.
This is why I used to sound in tune to me when I was playing, but terrible on the tape of the gig. When I went to meantone tuning, I sounded the same live as I did on tape - better by the way.

[Tommy Boswell]

Here's a brief experiment, to show you what happens with the "sweetened" tunings:
On your tuner, tune everything to 0/straight up, EXCEPT for the following notes, which you'll tune just 4-6 cents flat: G#, A# (if you lower your Bs), C#, D# and E#/F.
This is the compromise I hit on, somewhere between ET and JI. It's easy to remember and doesn't require craziness like 30cents flat Fs.

Thanks to Lane for the "experiment". You gave me something easy to do on a cheap tuner, plus the concept of tuning notes and not just strings (like a 6-string). I used to flatten my G#s, knowing that ET thirds were harsh. But I didn't have the whole picture of what else needs flattening. I like what I'm hearing so far.

[Georg Sørtun]

My head will tune the dominant pitch perfectly, but I really needed it to be tuned slightly flat or sharp(depending on pedals and which chord inversion), to make the entire chord sound in tune.
This is why I used to sound in tune to me when I was playing, but terrible on the tape of the gig.

I understand what you're saying, but find it a little strange that you don't "auto-pitch" sharp or flat to whoever you're playing with regardless of your particular tuning-quirks.

That's the part of what I learned as a kid that still stays with me. A band may force me to intonate a quarter fret or more off to stay in tune with them, and I may loose track of what key I'm playing in, but I will still play in tune with them. That's what my ears are trained to, and fret-markers are mere suggestions...


Another thing is that I always check my tuning, and fine-tune my pedals and levers, with the bar on the strings - up and down in the third to seventh fret range - to make sure I account for my average bar pressure. That some strings and pedal/lever combinations then end up being tuned a few cents off in open, doesn't bother me one bit since I rarely ever play without the bar on the strings for long anyway.


Now, whatever methods players use to tune so they can play in tune, is OK on my book. That you have found a method that works for you, is excellent

[b0b]

Here's a brief experiment, to show you what happens with the "sweetened" tunings:
On your tuner, tune everything to 0/straight up, EXCEPT for the following notes, which you'll tune just 4-6 cents flat: G#, A# (if you lower your Bs), C#, D# and E#/F.
This is the compromise I hit on, somewhere between ET and JI. It's easy to remember and doesn't require craziness like 30cents flat Fs.

Thanks to Lane for the "experiment". You gave me something easy to do on a cheap tuner, plus the concept of tuning notes and not just strings (like a 6-string). I used to flatten my G#s, knowing that ET thirds were harsh. But I didn't have the whole picture of what else needs flattening. I like what I'm hearing so far.

That's good up to a point. The F lever needs to be twice as flat, because it's the 3rd of C# which has already been tuned flat. If C# is -5 cents, F (E#) should be -10 cents for consistency.

[Lane Gray]

If I used the F lever often, I would. ALSO worth remembering in that not only is the C# flatted, so is the G#.

[Ian Rae]

I use the F lever a lot. Its only function is to provide the 3rd in a C# chord (E# to be precise, not pedantic, just precise ) and I tune it so that it sounds right in that context, which in my case is a natural 5:4 interval plus a tiny margin for error (just over doesn't hurt but just under does )

How that translates into cents I would have to buy a tuner to find out and I'm too mean.

[b0b]

If I used the F lever often, I would. ALSO worth remembering in that not only is the C# flatted, so is the G#.

Right. They are the root and 5th of the C# chord. All the more reason to double-flat the F lever to get the major 3rd in tune.

Why do we do this? We could tune everything to the center mark on a tuner and be done with it. Well, consider the harmonic points on an E string, where the pure harmonies can be found. Touch the string with your finger at a harmonic point and pick it to hear the note. It's basic physics.

When you divide the string length by 2, you get the octave of E at the 12th fret. If you divide the string by 3, you get a B note at the 7th fret. If you divide the string by 4, you get the double octave E at the 5th fret.

So we have E's and B's falling right where the fret lines are. Now divide the string length by 5. This gives you the G# note (in a much higher octave). If you try to sound it with your finger right at the 4th fret, you get nothing. The actual harmonic point is about 1/8" below the 4th fret.

The pure harmony that we hear as a major 3rd doesn't line up with frets on the guitar! Several centuries ago, European instrument makers devised a compromise to allow keyboard instruments to play in every key. They did it by raising the major 3rd enough to make 12 equal steps in an octave. That's where our frets are.

Flatting the 3rds does not sound out of tune because our ears can't deny the physics of harmony. If we tuned to equal temperament it would sound okay, but there are other factors we have to deal with, like cabinet drop and temperature changes. An equal tempered 3rd sounds reasonable, but if that note goes a just a little bit sharp it sounds horrible. Also, a 3rd tuned perfectly to harmonics sounds horrible if it goes any flatter.

Tuning the 3rds flat just a bit, as Lane suggests, allows the notes to drift a few cents in either direction without sounding out of tune. You can tune perfectly, as Jeff Newman and Lloyd Green and other studio players have done, but then you have to keep it perfect for every song. That is pretty hard to do on the bandstand, over the course of a 50-minute set!

My pedal steel is technically out of tune, but it blends well with the other out-of-tune instruments in the band: the equally tempered keyboard, the finger-pressure-bent guitars, the fiddler's ears and the singers' voices. The differences are only a few cents. Like the different timbres, they give the music character. We don't sound like computers, perfectly aligned to 12th-root-of-2 mathematics. That's a good thing.