Shielding on guitar cords not the same.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 20 Jun 2016 6:33 pm

I learned something today. I learned not to trust the shielding on guitar cords, even brand new cords. I was testing pedals to be shipped out today, and was getting a distracting hum. I realized the only thing different was a new guitar cord. I put a 2nd new guitar cord connected to my amp, and the hum was still there. I then went and got a real old cord. When I put the old cord on, the hum was gone, and the amp was dead quiet. The cords that had the hum were brand new. I think some cord manufacturers are cutting corners and putting inferior shielding on cords. Maybe a type of metal that is cheaper than copper. Rubber is put over the shielding, so you really don't know the quality of the material used. I don't know how you could test the shielding, unless you plugged in a guitar and compared the noise level to some old guitar cord that had great shielding material. The brand of guitar cord with the hum is "Live Wire Advantage Instrument Cable". They look great, but the shielding is extremely poor. I think it is cheap shielding material. From now on I am testing the noise level of the shielding on any new guitar cord.

Scott Duckworth · Post by **Scott Duckworth** » 21 Jun 2016 4:07 am

I've seen some shielded cables that had the foil wrap and full braid in them, and I've also seen some that had a single "drain wire" for a shield.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 21 Jun 2016 4:26 am

I used to get guitar cords to repair, when I worked as an amp tech. Many of them were cheap "imported" cords and I would reject them as "not repairable". If you put a soldering iron to them they would burn up or wouldn't tin.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 21 Jun 2016 8:02 am

You can't beat good cords!

Bill Ferguson · Post by **Bill Ferguson** » 21 Jun 2016 2:53 pm

I have used George L's cable for years and have not run into this problem.

Can you explain a little further, Keith?

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 22 Jun 2016 6:38 am

Keith: Did you take the cords apart to possible see what the problem is?

Is it one end of the cords, or both, or in the middle?

After you take them apart, are they fixable?
If so, how did that go?

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 22 Jun 2016 8:21 am

I will try to answer ajm, and my friend Bill Ferguson. The cords with poor shielding are new, bought at "Guitar Center". I can tell that it is the shielding, as noise levels increase as you move the cord around. I hooked up an old cord and it is dead quiet. It boils down to a manufacturer cutting corners, and Guitar Center trying to make the most money. I think as musicians we have taken the shielding on cords for granted. Not realizing there can be huge differences. Some metals used for shielding conduct better, but cost more. Some really good cords can have shielding with a double layer, with the outside layer being foil wrap. The only solution is buyer beware! The brand name on these poorly shielded cords is: "Live Wire Advantage Instrument Cable". Sold by many big music store chains. I sent an E-mail to Guitar Center and told them about the cords--got no reply. They are too big to care, besides the young guys play with so much fuzz it don't matter anyway. As I see it, the only way to know if you are buying a properly shielded cord, is to test it against an old cord that has no noise. From now on I am testing the shielding of any guitar cord I plug in.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 22 Jun 2016 9:05 am

The best known cable maker is Belden. In searching cable I found a site that listed the 10 best guitar cords. http://www.guitarsite.com/best-guitar-cable/
Interesting that George L is at the top of the list. Also surprising that Live Wire is even listed in the top 10, considering my opinion of Live Wire. Like it said, they are cheap.
The no solder George L cords are extremely popular, because soldering is a skill and requires tools. I don't know if I agree with any of what is written in this web site. I don't think I will trust any guitar cord until I plug it in and listen.

Craig Baker · Post by **Craig Baker** » 22 Jun 2016 9:16 am

Keith,
Where in the chain was the "problem" cord? Was it from the guitar to the pedal or following the pedal, feeding signal to the amp?

Craig

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 22 Jun 2016 10:06 am

Craig: Problem cord was from the guitar pedal to the amp.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 22 Jun 2016 11:43 am

Keith Hilton wrote:Problem cord was from the guitar pedal to the amp.

If the cable followed a low-Z output pedal, I'm wondering if the problem cord had low shield conductivity resulting in "floating GND", rather then, or in addition to, having inferior "shielding" effect.

Of course; the resulting "hum" would sound almost the same... $:\$

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 22 Jun 2016 12:22 pm

Georg, I have been wondering the same thing. My volume pedal has a low Z output, meaning low impedance output. So when you talk about low conductivity in the guitar cord metal--that would mean the guitar cord metal was low quality. Different metals conduct different. Manufacturers of guitar cords cut price by using cheap metals. If the material used in the guitar cord is not conductive enough to create a good ground, it boils down to cheap metal in the guitar cord. The cord from the guitar to the input of the pedal was the same brand as the noisy cord, but produced no noise. Then again, the cord from the guitar to the pedal was only 3 foot, and the other cord was 10 foot. Georg, here we have two possible causes, each of which would produce the same hum. #1 Poor shielding #2 Low conductivity in ground and shielding wire. Both #1 and #2 are caused by cheap material, hidden inside a rubber guitar cord.

Craig Baker · Post by **Craig Baker** » 22 Jun 2016 12:48 pm

Keith,
Needless to say I am pro buffer. However, your example demonstrates that the high impedance output of the guitar immediately showed the flaw, while your pedal, with it's low impedance output ignored the problem like it didn't exist.

As you know, the circuit driving the line sets the impedance of the line. That's why your pedals sound so good.

Respectfully,
Craig

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 22 Jun 2016 1:04 pm

Craig, you have the wording turned around.
It should be:
"However, your example demonstrates that the high impedance output of the guitar ignored the problem like it didn't exist, your pedal, with it's low impedance output immediately showed the flaw.
As you know, the circuit driving the line sets the impedance of the line. That's why your pedals sound so good."
In other words the low output impedance of my pedal demonstrated the low quality of the metal used in the shielding and grounding.
Craig thank you for the kind words about my pedals.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 22 Jun 2016 1:25 pm

Keith, no question about it; that budget-cable is made out of cheap/weak conduction material, and isn't suited for use everywhere in a sound-chain. I have dealt with my fair share of bad audio and HF cables over the years, and recognize the various "signs".

It is more than "theoretically interesting" to know what makes a specific cable's weaknesses show up.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 22 Jun 2016 2:11 pm

Keith Hilton wrote:Craig, you have the wording turned around.
It should be:
"However, your example demonstrates that the high impedance output of the guitar ignored the problem like it didn't exist, your pedal, with it's low impedance output immediately showed the flaw.

Right; low output impedance means "current-driving" the cable (even if the amp's input impedance is high), which probably is what showed the budget-cable's weaknesses. Not an unknown phenomenon with unballanced connections if the GND (in the signal-cable) isn't "solid/rigid" enough.

Craig Baker · Post by **Craig Baker** » 22 Jun 2016 3:13 pm

Right you are Keith, I mis-read your post. Georg, I have seen some cables that didn't appear to metallic at all, but rather a plastic material impregnated with some type of conductive material. Unless you can afford fiber optics, better stick with copper, silver or gold.

Craig

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 22 Jun 2016 4:40 pm

"Polywire" comes to mind

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 22 Jun 2016 6:23 pm

Erv Niehaus wrote:You can't beat good cords!

True. I prefer maj7 and sus 2 chords.

Bill Ferguson · Post by **Bill Ferguson** » 23 Jun 2016 3:05 am

"The best known cable maker is Belden. In searching cable I found a site that listed the 10 best guitar cords. http://www.guitarsite.com/best-guitar-cable/
Interesting that George L is at the top of the list."

Many of us have known this for years. I don't even own another brand of cord now.
In fact, if I wire a rack, I use George L's internally in the rack, even if I have to make a solder connection to a 1/4" female jack (Switchcraft preferred)

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 23 Jun 2016 7:32 am

Richard,
I really prefer demented chords.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 23 Jun 2016 9:44 am

Live Wire Advantage Instrument Cables have a life time warranty. Simply take it back to Guitar Center and they will replace it, no questions asked.

I have several of their cables, in different lengths. I use them after a quality buffer. No problems in getting a good sound.

I did get one that had the same problem you describe. It was that way when I took it out of the package. The next time I was in the neighborhood of the store, I took it back. The replacement worked fine, and still does.

I only use those cables when we are on a large stage and there are idiots clomping around between me and my amp, stepping on my cable. The rubber jacket on the cables is thick and durable.

Bill Ferguson · Post by **Bill Ferguson** » 26 Jun 2016 4:15 am

Lee, many cables offer a lifetime warranty including George L's.
However I don't ever remember having to replace one for anyone. It is such a simple fix if someone trips over your cord. Easier to fix than to drive back to a store.

But any of my customers have a problem with a cable, I send a replacement immediately and pay the shipping to get the old cable back.

So for me, best cable, best warranty and great customer service. You can call and talk to the owner of the company.

Michael Hartz · Post by **Michael Hartz** » 27 Jun 2016 7:46 pm

Mogami W2524 is th only cable I use now to make guitar cables. It has extra shielding around the core to protect from hum.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 27 Jun 2016 8:20 pm

I returned my Live Wire cords,and upgraded to Mogami Gold. Good grounding, and good shielding, becomes more important every day. The world has become more electrical, and electronically complicated. Compare the electronic devices, electronic signals,and EMF floating around now to 1960. The chance of picking up noise in an audio system is much more likely today than it was in 1960. The only test I know is to compare cords for noise. Keep a cord you know has no noise, and test that cord against any new cords you add to the system. Bad guitar cords cause noise more often than anything else in a audio system.