Goodrich Volume Pedal opinions

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 19 May 2016 4:22 am

I've got two Goodrich pedals that I use
as spares. I had to use one at rehearsal
last week and it just chokes out the highs
right out of the amp.
I couldn't adjust my amp to compensate
for the loss. The next evening I tried my other low
profile pedal and it sounded the same. They
both are so dark and muddy sounding. They are useless
to me. Has anyone else experienced this?

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabinets.com

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 19 May 2016 4:40 am

Passive (pot) VPs tend to lead to loss of highs. How much loss depends on length and quality of cables, and input impedance in amp (or whatever that follows the VP).

This "loss of highs" is why so many of us use one or another form for active buffer between the PU and the passive VP.

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 19 May 2016 4:47 am

Yes, same situation here. Tried installing different pots, even the finicky (to install) Dunlop with similar results. Unless the pedal was in full on position, the highs went South. Now using a Telonics, problem solved.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 19 May 2016 5:55 am

Anytime you go thru a pot you will notice a change- unless you have an active circuit making up for the difference. Goodrich makes a pedal- the K series- that has a buffer built in (L10K and H10K) and you will find that it brings back the highs. That being said- if you think that the tone is too dark you might try using Geo L's cables as low capacitance cables will help.

Richard Wilhelm · Post by **Richard Wilhelm** » 19 May 2016 6:01 am

In my experience as a long time beginner on the steel git-tar (since 1969). I also will lose much of my good tone thru my Goodrich pedal (an older one with the psychedelic space tape). What's affecting the sound is the series of jacks along with the pot. But I put a booster before the pedal, some would say a buffer but it's not one in the true electronic sense. Goodrich use to sell these gain boxes along with a tone control that was attached to the leg of the steel. Rick, if you put a true buffer before the pedal, it will make a difference. A Boss pedal I'm told has a buffer in it. Which will brighten the sound back. A Boss pedal brightens my sound no matter where I put it in my chain. I, myself, use the "ultimate" gain box. It's an old Peavy Valverb, a tube reverb with a 30 or 40 watt preamp. I get an improved sound than if I was just going straight into the amp plus all the extra gain for the amp. I once had an electronic pedal, I think it was a Boss. I found the tone to be somewhat sterile. A passive pedal, such as the good'ole Goodrich is my preference.

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 19 May 2016 6:49 am

My Emmons pedal and Sho-Bud pedals
sound great...guess I need to look
around for a new pedal.

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabinets.com

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 19 May 2016 7:10 am

Maybe that's why Goodrich also made the MatchBox.

kevin ryan · Post by **kevin ryan** » 19 May 2016 7:23 am

Hey Rick, Not sure exactly which pedals you have from Goodrich (era). They used numerous pot manufacturers, some better than others for sure. As we go through the different challenges of creating a great pedal and what that demands, it would be really helpful If I could get your pedals from you at no charge to you of course and see what the issue is and maybe help you out. So if you could send me your direct email address to goodrichvp@gmail.com I will send you a mailing label for you to send those over to us to evaluate and fix....
Hope this is helps... Kevin

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 19 May 2016 9:00 am

My pedals are the 120 and 120L
They are not the black looking but the
nice looking brushed aluminum ones.
Thanks for your offer Kevin. I'll email
you right away.

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabs.com

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 19 May 2016 9:02 am

Rick, be thankful you can hear the tone difference. Some people are unable to hear the tone loss.

Bruce Derr · Post by **Bruce Derr** » 19 May 2016 10:40 am

Rick, pedals don't always cause tone loss, despite what some would have you believe. You even mentioned that your Emmons and Sho-Bud pedals sound ok. Are you using the same cables with them that you did with the Goodrich?

The pot pedal is only one of several factors that can combine to cause treble loss. The other factors are cable capacitance (the biggest wild card) and source impedance (which includes pickup impedance and the how much your volume pedal is backed off from full "on").

Most everyone knows that with high-impedance pickups, cable capacitance allows some treble to leak to ground before it reaches your amp. The higher the impedance and/or the longer the cable, the more treble leaks. But I don't see the role of the volume pedal pot explained much.

When a pot volume pedal is fully "on" it doesn't affect the pickup impedance. However, when you back off the volume a bit, the pot essentially bumps the impedance of the pickup way up, as the amp cable sees it. This causes a big increase in how bad the cable capacitance hurts the signal. The treble leak can get much worse. Often you don't hear any significant treble loss with the volume pedal up full bore. If you do, it might be that the pot is strung so that it never fully reaches that end of its travel.

You can usually improve things a lot by just using a short cable from volume pedal to amp. This lowers the cable capacitance a lot, maybe enough to not significantly hurt your sound. (The cable from your guitar to the pedal typically isn't long enough to matter much.)

If you have to use a long cable to your amp, go with low-capacitance cable. (Low-capacitance isn't a matter of cable quality. There are some very high quality cables that have fairly high capacitance per foot.)

Or you can use a buffer, which will lower the pickup impedance drastically and should solve the problem. If you only use one buffer, put it on the output of the volume pedal ahead of your amp cord. If you only use a buffer at your guitar's output jack, it will help but you could still hear some tone loss when you back off the volume pedal, when the pot raises the source impedance.

Personally I use all three approaches depending on my situation. If I set up close to my amp I often don't bother using a buffer. I just use a short cable and the steel sounds fine.

Of course the grandest option is an active pedal. If you don't mind the price and extra power connection, it'll certainly solve the problem completely.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 19 May 2016 10:42 am

Report back if there is a solution... as your situation with the Goodrich sounds extreme. I use Emmons, Sho~Bud, and Goodrich L-120 pedals and have no problem with them. There is the usual slight attenuation of HF when not at full volume, but I like and use that passive vp characteristic.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 19 May 2016 10:59 am

I don't use pedals made by people who imply that if you don't use their pedals your ears are inferior.
Which is just as well because I like my Goodrich pedals just fine. As others have said, there seems to be something extreme going in the OP's situation.

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » 19 May 2016 11:55 am

I've noticed that myself w/ my Goodrich 120 and I was considering throwing a .002 cap on the pot like I have on a couple of my 6 string electrics. Anyone tried this? I'm thinking it might thin out those wonderful resonant overtones & harmonics - not so bad on a 6 string but would suck the soul out of a PSG.

Jerry Van Hoose · Post by **Jerry Van Hoose** » 19 May 2016 12:13 pm

Hi Rick, I have three Goodrich 120's, a very old one with polished aluminum housing, one from the era like you described along with a new one only a couple of months old, all three were purchased new. I've changed the pots in the two older ones with the new Goodrich pots by Kevin Ryan. My oldest (the first) sounds just as good as the brand new one from Goodrich, however, the one similar to yours didn't nearly have the clarity of the other two. So, I removed the bottom plates of all three and compared them side by side. I discovered that the jacks in the oldest as well as the new one were the same high quality jacks, however, the pedal similar to the one built in the era that you described had different jacks. That pedal had a plastic-like housing for lack of a better description, around the inside of the jacks. I replaced those jacks with all metal ones like in my new Goodrich 120 and now, all 3 pedals sound the same. I'm sure that your Sho~Bud and Emmons pedals have the all metal type jacks. I would like to add that I'm very pleased with the quality and sound of my new Goodrich 120 from Kevin Ryan.

Craig Baker · Post by **Craig Baker** » 19 May 2016 2:10 pm

Here is part of an earlier writing I posted back in 2014. It may help shed some light.

There has been much discussion regarding some pot-type pedals sounding different than other pot-type pedals. This seems strange since most pedals use a 500K pot. Assuming they're wired correctly, how can they possibly sound different? I asked my Chief Engineer to measure a few pots using a capacitance bridge, and see if there could possibly be some capacity between the resistive element and the metal case. In theory I knew there had to be some capacitance, but such a low value, I thought it would not be a factor.

The results are in: the pots he measured ranged between 8 and 22 pf. 22pf is certainly enough capacity to cause high frequency loss at high impedance. This might explain why various pot pedals not only sound different, but none of them sound as good as a pedal using the new generation of non-metal pots. The same problem could exist in the previously mentioned jacks enclosed in molded plastic. At high impedance it even makes a difference if the insulation on jacks and plugs get dirty. If you're getting a muddy sound, try cleaning all connections with denatured alcohol.

But wait. . . there's more!

Beyond volume pedal troubles, consider guitars with built-in volume or tone controls. Add to that the fact that some pick up manufacturers use mini-coax such as RG-174 to carry the audio from the pickup. This coax is rated at nearly 30pf per foot. When you add all of this together, is there any wonder that we are forever chasing a better tone.

Respectfully,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792

cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com

C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024

Joseph Napolitano · Post by **Joseph Napolitano** » 19 May 2016 5:50 pm

I like the darker sound of my Goodrich pot pedals. They nicely tame the highs of my silverfaces.

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 20 May 2016 4:52 am

Looks like there are a lot of opinions
on tone...to pinpoint my problem I tried
two set of cables I still use my old Bill Lawrence
cables and I have a backup set of George L cables.
Both sets work great with all my guitars.
I checked the pots in my old Sho-Bud and Emmons
pedal and they are Allen Bradley pots and they are
over 30 yrs old. Both my Goodrich pedals have
a Clarostat pot in them. I think thats the issue.
Its not the pickups in the guitars and its not
my cables, and I know its not my amps. I tried
four different amps.
Good news is Kevin Ryan has stepped up and wants to
help me resolve my problems. I think I'll get
some good results.

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabinets.com

Craig Baker · Post by **Craig Baker** » 20 May 2016 5:21 am

Rick,
You're headed in the right direction.

Everything I hear about Kevin and Jim get's them an A+ rating.

No doubt those Goodrich pedals are going to sound good and rich.

Craig

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 20 May 2016 6:21 am

I'd walked right past that "my Emmons and Bud pedals sound fine" before.
I suspect the specific pots

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 20 May 2016 6:38 am

Craig....I failed to mention that
I also have a old Lil Lizzy hooked to the guitar too?

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabinets.com

Craig Baker · Post by **Craig Baker** » 20 May 2016 6:43 am

Rick,
So you're the one. . . I knew there had to be somebody out there still using a Li'l Izzy.

Thank you for mentioning it Rick.

Hope it continues to serve you well. Let me know if it ever burps.

Craig

Larry Hamilton · Post by **Larry Hamilton** » 20 May 2016 8:19 am

I agree with everything I've read. IMHO, it's in the pots. The three cable hookup, IMHO, was one of the best things to come out. Been using three cables since my Session 500 when they first came out. Sometimes I've kind of been a little redundant in my hookups but I've always bee pleased I.e. Hilton pedal or my Telonics pedal plus three cables. It's your ear you're trying to please. Just my 2 cents.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 20 May 2016 6:59 pm

I like to pursue at least the illusion of consistency and the Hilton does it. And when I'm wiring up guitars I've taken to measuring the pots just as a matter of course. And I've measured anywhere from 420K to 520K on "500K" high-quality pots from "reputable manufacturers", and 180K to 250K on 250K pots. They'll tell you flat out in the small print +/- 20% unless you pay more for a bit more sorting. And, ummm... if a retailer advertises that they DO sell specially "matched" pots - AND they sell others - WHICH others are those likely to be?

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 20 May 2016 8:15 pm

Interesting David. I forgot about the +/-20% That might explain why some are different.

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Goodrich Volume Pedal opinions

Goodrich Volume Pedal opinions

Capacity that is often overlooked