Anyone use E's to F# on KL on E9?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 2 Dec 2004 11:02 pm

Studying the Franklin pedal, it seems a perhaps valid equivalent would be raising both E's to F#, sliding down 2 frets you'd have the same change as his complete 4th pedal, plus other licks, Mooney style stuff, as well at the root position, adding a moving 6th/13th with pedals down, etc.

Anyone tried that? How's it work out?

About the only place I can logically add it to my E9 with 4+6 is as an outer RKL, same position where I lower the E's, there'd be no reason to use those together, and all my other changes might work nicely with this new change.

Thanks for advice, gang!

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 2 Dec 2004 11:35 pm

It would not be an opposite equivalent to PF's P4 since you havent taken into consideration string 9 7 3 2 & 1 and all other pedal/knee lever combinations at the same time.

Other reasons for raising one or both of the E's on the E9 neck from E-F# do exist. If you have more than 4 knee levers then an extra LKL could do 4th string E-F# or it could be in the LKV. I have tried the change both places and it works well in either place. If you have a 2nd RKRlever it could do 8th string E-F# (split w LKR E's- Eb)

more than 4 knee levers, options would be
(Emmons setup w E raise/lowers on LKL/LKR)
LKL2 4 E-F#
LKL2 4 & 8 E-F#
LKV 4 E-F#
LKV 4 & 8 E-F#
RKR2 8 E-F#(split tuned to F w E's-Eb)

Since you already have 6KL's I assume LKL1 LKL2 LKV LKR P1 - P4 RKL RKR
If you could list what is on each it would be of great help to see where a E-F#raise would fit.

Bengt
[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 02 December 2004 at 11:41 PM.]

Colin Goss · Post by **Colin Goss** » 3 Dec 2004 12:06 am

I put an EtoF# raise on my LKR some years ago after working with Jeff Newman's music to backup course which included Mooney style backing.

I find it very useful for Mooney style licks but also for chord work. At (say) fret 10 pedals A&B, sliding down to 8, and adding the LKR, and finally dropping the pedals and knee lever gives me a different lick.

I also have the normal C lever working on the E and B strings which is used in the usual way.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 3 Dec 2004 2:31 am

I have always had that change on my LKV, virtually eliminating the need for the C pedal. Raising the knee while my left foot is on A + B is much quicker and easier than jumping sideways to the C pedal. I believe very few players do this, but the change was on my first pro steel when I bought it, and I liked it instantly. Nowadays it feels awkward to play without it.
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Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Goodrich 120, Peavey Nashville 1000

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 3 Dec 2004 6:17 am

Like Per, I had the E to F# (4th string only) on a LKV on the Sierra I used to own. I used it alot for going to the relative minor from the A/B "pedals-down" position. I still use the B/C pedal combination for the "Bakersfield" type playing where you go from B/C pedals to no pedals rapidly and for playing 2 and 3-note scale passages.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 3 Dec 2004 6:27 am

Per

This will not work if you have a double raise double lower changer.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 3 Dec 2004 6:31 am

I had the E to F# on my LKR for 23 years. I liked it there but went back to the more standard C pedal set up. There were other pulls I wanted on the knee levers. I'm considering changing things around again. It happens every time I play the "Some of my Favorite Things" CD.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 3 Dec 2004 6:35 am

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 06 December 2004 at 12:40 AM.]

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 3 Dec 2004 7:43 am

I have been using Per's setup (E - F# on LKV) for a few months, after picking up on it in an earlier thread, and I really like it, although I haven't let go of my C pedal yet. If I had to choose between them, I'd lose the C pedal. On the other hand, I did take the Franklin pedal off the same guitar, because although I really like what it can do, I just haven't been using it in the music I have been playing. Maybe I will put it back on -- in place of the C pedal!

Waisznor · Post by **Waisznor** » 3 Dec 2004 8:27 am

I have this change on my 10th pedal!

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 3 Dec 2004 10:11 am

Great question - I have my E-F# on a knee, and noticed and wondered the same thing...that is - about how to use it as a reverse substitute for the PF pedal.[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 03 December 2004 at 10:17 AM.]

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 3 Dec 2004 3:01 pm

I use it for the Mooney stuff and other home grown licks I guess. I installed an additional RKL on my Legrande just for this purpose. I use it fairly often. I just fold it up out of the way if I'm not in the mood. Just depends on the gig.

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 3 Dec 2004 5:11 pm

I have it on my LKL and I find it awkward. I've gone back to using the C pedal.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 3 Dec 2004 7:20 pm

I've got it on my LKL and never thought of the obvious- thanks John))

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 3 Dec 2004 7:39 pm

First note to all as you study my copedent, I play a Mullen D-12, extended E9, and C6 (strings 1 and 2 are D and F notes on C6).

Bengt, I do have my six KL's as you describe it. I'm about to move a couple of things around, adding a zero pedal and possibly pulls to pedal 4 has created quite a few quandaries about the best possible place for the many changes I want.

Note I have E's up and down on right knee, not left, and love it because those work in combo with all 4 kl's on the left knee. Also keeps left leg and right knee busy and generally working ergonomically in opposite and opposed movements. I HATE the current usual setup with the left leg and knee doing almost all the work. Guess I have decent volume pedal technique, the action on the right kl causes no problems there.

Here's where my plans stand now:
LKL inner: 2nd D# > D/C#, 9th D > C#
LKL outer: 1st F# > G#; 2nd D# > E; 7th F# > G
LKV: B's > Bb
LKR: 1st F# > G; 6th G# > F#

RKL: 4th and 8th (not 12th) E's > Eb
RKR: 4th, 8th, E's > F; 12th E < C#

If I don't add the E's to F# change as a second RKL, I might put this on Pedal 8, my last pedal, like you have, Waisznor, thanks for confirming that is a good option.

And here's my pedal plans:

P0: B's > A (partial Franklin pedal change, use LKR to complete it, and also get more chord possibilities with the lowers split up like this)

P1-P3: standard Emmons changes; I had 8th E < F# and liked that a lot, but the pedal was just too stiff to live with.

P4: currently has the B's > A, but the jump to there from pedals 1&2 and grabbing LKR together is a little dicey! Moving those changes to P0 will make that jump easy to do by comparison. Probably put no E9 changes here, or just experiment now and then.

Anyway, anyone out there have experience with both the usual Franklin changes on a pedal, AND the E's > F# inverted alternate, and have learnings and preferences to share?

Bengt, with the Franklin pedal, I generally just lower the tonic cord and then go back to tonic, the same way Paul does, so I stay on strings 10-8-6-5-4-3 from the major chord grips. What other chords do you find useful when picking other strings and that pedal? Other KL's work good in tandem with it?

Thanks for such great feedback, Forumites!

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 4 Dec 2004 1:38 am

Lowering both 6 & 5 down a whole tone can be used together with lowering 4th down to Eb for a nice 13th subst voicing on strings 6 5 4 3. It would be similar to raising E's to F and raising 3string a whole tone (3frets above open chord) with the possibility of the 3rd string breaking way to often.
Same thing can be done from the m7 voicing on strings 6 5 2 1, lower both 6 & 5 a whole tone and the raise only 1st string a full tone.

Lowering 9th and 2nd at the same time as lowering 6 & 5 a whole tone also have combinations with other strings. It is not so much which chord is in each position but more how you get from one voicing to another that is of importance.

If you want to use the E-F# raise, best place would either be LKV or P8 IMO.
I would also consider moving the B-Bb prsently on LKV to P8 to make the LKV available for 4 E-F# and possibly 12E-F# since you have an ext E9.

My two rightmost pedals on my ext E9 raise 6 & 5 up a whole tone and the one furthest to the righht lowers both B's to Bb. I use right foot two play those pedals very often w the E-Eb lever. Then my left foot is happy to be on the A+B pedals any tome.

If you are not happy with B's to A on P0 you could try 12 E-C#, 7 F#-F, 1 F#-F on P0. It should feel very comfortable there.

I do miss a raise on the 7th string but that is personal preferences. It is still there but found as a lower of the 6th string instead.

Nice configuration of knee-levers you have so don't change anything without thinkin really good if it is going to mess up something that already works.

Bengt

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 04 December 2004 at 01:46 AM.]

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 4 Dec 2004 5:40 am

I had a thought and it hurt. Anyway would there be any point in the E to F on the C pedal, and the E to F# on the RKL? I use my Eto F a lot more than I use my C pedal now.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 4 Dec 2004 9:44 am

Jack-I also do as you do, have E to F# on a knee lever. Hardly ever use the C pedal except for blazing speed stuff and I don't do that.
It is also good for moving chords with the A and B pedals down, slowly go from the E to F# knee lever to the E to D# knee lever, it is a nice musical change , can be used in a lot of slow songs....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 4 Dec 2004 6:01 pm

i've always just had E-F# on a knee...never had a normal C pedal...works well for me....somehow it may be pete grant's fault since i bought my first steel from him...35 yrs ago....wow, pete must be getting old...

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 4 Dec 2004 7:19 pm

I fooled with E-F# in a number of spots - and found that I like it best on RKL...

I can totally understand why those of you with it on LKL would want to go back to the C pedal...I've always found A+B+LKL to be on the awkward side, and then try and do lots of it with an even longer lever throw for E-F# than for E-F...Doesn't work too nice there.

Besides, there's some nice logic to having E-F on LKL, E-Eb on RKR, and then E-F# on RKL. Lots of neat little moves happening with that setup.

Rex Blevins · Post by **Rex Blevins** » 5 Dec 2004 6:35 am

That is a change Tom Brumley has had for years on a LKL.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 5 Dec 2004 1:13 pm

Chris, I too am a Pete Grant blamer: one touch of his Emmons D-12 p/p in the late 70's, and I was bitten by the bug. Played an MSA D-10 for 10 years, but never forgot that deep beautiful sound of his extended E9. In the early 90's I moved to a MSA D-12, and now a Mullen D-12, and have never regretted it. Well, except for the weight! I'm envying Bob Lee's 46 lb Williams D-12 crossover, sounds like a great solution.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 5 Dec 2004 1:43 pm

Chris, I too am a Pete Grant blamer: one touch of his Emmons D-12 p/p in the late 70's, and I was bitten by the bug. Played an MSA D-10 for 10 years, but never forgot that deep beautiful sound of his extended E9. In the early 90's I moved to a MSA D-12, and now a Mullen D-12, and have never regretted it. Well, except for the weight! I'm envying Bob Lee's 46 lb Williams D-12 crossover, sounds like a great solution.

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 10 Dec 2004 10:30 pm

Curly Chalker raised the 4th string(E) to F# on his knee lowering the 8th(E) to Eb instead of lowering the 4th as we all do except Lloyd Green.(at least Lloyd didn't used to. He may now)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 11 Dec 2004 10:58 am

Lloyd still doesn't lower his 4th string.

I have always had the 4th string raise to F# on my vertical lever. For a while I also raised the 8th string, at Paul Franklin's suggestion, but I didn't like the way it felt.

Curly Chalker's lever is similar to what you get on a push-pull, where "raises win". It was real handy, when I played an Emmons, to lower the 8th and raise the 4th at the same time. Nice for B6th position playing.

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