Double E9 neck?

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 18 Apr 2016 8:22 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PCL9W54QVw

Based on current practice with double neck axes it certainly looks like he should be playing a C6- but without doubt it's an E9

Anyone know what the deal is?

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 18 Apr 2016 8:48 am

C6 on the back neck is conventional, but not enshrined in law. Some of the setups in the back of Winnie's book are back-to-front by modern thinking.

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 18 Apr 2016 8:50 am

Makes sense- many (most) players are probably spending more time o the E9 neck anyway..... definitely an old clip.

Anyone know the player?
Talk about tone......

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 18 Apr 2016 9:12 am

Norm Hamlet.

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 18 Apr 2016 9:22 am

David -- another great player who had the necks reversed was Curly Chalker. If you're not familiar with him, do a Youtube search. There are tons of old clips from the Wilburn Bros Show and Hee-Haw.

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 18 Apr 2016 1:11 pm

Ralph Mooney used the rear neck almost exclusively, believe that his front neck was tuned in somewhat of a Dobro tuning. He employed a unique setup (most pedals only pulled one string) and routinely played with both feet on the pedals. Many of the steel parts on Merle's early recordings (including the one in the video) were courtesy of 'Mr. Moon'. Ralph's tone and style were instantly recognizable, very distinctive and leaning heavily to the treble side.

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 18 Apr 2016 1:32 pm

David Nugent wrote:Ralph Mooney used the rear neck almost exclusively, believe that his front neck was tuned in somewhat of a Dobro tuning. He employed a unique setup (most pedals only pulled one string) and routinely played with both feet on the pedals. Many of the steel parts on Merle's early recordings (including the one in the video) were courtesy of 'Mr. Moon'. Ralph's tone and style were instantly recognizable, very distinctive and leaning heavily to the treble side.

Are you saying it's not Norm Hamlet playing on the Merle Haggard clip I posted- or that Ralph taught Norm the licks?

Mike Kowalik · Post by **Mike Kowalik** » 18 Apr 2016 2:22 pm

Norman Hamlet playing a Fender steel...

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 18 Apr 2016 4:31 pm

I researched some old photos of Ralph and believe that is him in the video. He worked with both Merle and Buck Owens before joining Waylon Jennings. Ralph played a Fender for quite a while before being given a Sho-Bud Super Pro. However, he liked the sound of his Fender so well that he had the pickups in his Super Pro rewound to their specs.

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 18 Apr 2016 5:01 pm

I'm going to ask a bud who might know the answer.
If you watch his feet at about 25seconds in, it looks like he uses his right foot to hit a pedal.....

Bob Russell · Post by **Bob Russell** » 18 Apr 2016 5:47 pm

Pretty sure that's Mooney in the video.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 18 Apr 2016 7:30 pm

That's Norm Hamlet.

Bob Russell · Post by **Bob Russell** » 18 Apr 2016 8:03 pm

Steve Hinson wrote:That's Norm Hamlet.

I'm mistaken. Right you are, Steve (and Mike and Jerry). This should help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na6Ef2PEKHo

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 18 Apr 2016 10:42 pm

In an older thread Norm posted this:

norm hamlet wrote:Yes it is me when I was a lot younger.And thanks for the good words about me. When I went to work with Merle I had a triple neck 10 string Wright custom with nine pedals, no knee levers at that time. It was too heavy to take on the road and carry in and out. I had a Fender 1000 at home that was a lot lighter and I had to set it up so I could try to play the things that Ralph Mooney did on Merles first albums. So I set it up with the E9th on the back neck and a A6th on the front neck. The reason for that is because I needed to see the pedals to do the things I had to do. AT the time Merle wanted me to sound as much like Mooney as I could because of the first records. I am not saying I sounded just like him, but came close for Merle`s ear. After that tour when we done the video I got a ZB from Zane Beck, a double 11 with 8 pedals and 5 knee levers. The guitar had been one of his personal guitars and he had to change some of the set up on E9th for me and the other neck had a C6th set up. It would have taken him to long to change the C6th over to A6th so I told him I would take it like that.
Thanks for the interest on the Youtube video, that was some good times with my good friend Roy Nichols he was one of the best. He passed away a few years ago and we all sure miss him. I have been blessed to work with one of the best singers in the world. And to work for 42years with him has been a pleasure.
Thanks again to all of my steel guitar friends.
Norm Hamlet

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1501587

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 19 Apr 2016 3:01 am

When I performed the research I located an early photo of Mooney that I thought resembled the person in the video, my apologies for the misinformation. Norm certainly did a great job emulating Ralph's style and tone.

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 19 Apr 2016 3:20 am

I started playing with E9th on the bottom neck back in the late 70's. I even ordered my first new steel (Sho Bud Pro II) with the necks inverted.

Steve Skogquist a pro picker in the Minneapolis, MN area at the time (and the guy who got me started on the pedal steel) also owned and played a few Sho Buds with inverted necks.

It really worked out well. The only downside was it being non-standard from everyone else so buying and selling guitars became a pain.

Robert

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 19 Apr 2016 3:48 am

As someone who used to own a Fender 1000. I can only imagine how heavy Norm's Wright was if the Fender was "a lot lighter".

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 19 Apr 2016 8:18 am

Ian Worley wrote:In an older thread Norm posted this:

norm hamlet wrote:Yes it is me when I was a lot younger.And thanks for the good words about me. When I went to work with Merle I had a triple neck 10 string Wright custom with nine pedals, no knee levers at that time. It was too heavy to take on the road and carry in and out. I had a Fender 1000 at home that was a lot lighter and I had to set it up so I could try to play the things that Ralph Mooney did on Merles first albums. So I set it up with the E9th on the back neck and a A6th on the front neck. The reason for that is because I needed to see the pedals to do the things I had to do. AT the time Merle wanted me to sound as much like Mooney as I could because of the first records. I am not saying I sounded just like him, but came close for Merle`s ear. After that tour when we done the video I got a ZB from Zane Beck, a double 11 with 8 pedals and 5 knee levers. The guitar had been one of his personal guitars and he had to change some of the set up on E9th for me and the other neck had a C6th set up. It would have taken him to long to change the C6th over to A6th so I told him I would take it like that.
Thanks for the interest on the Youtube video, that was some good times with my good friend Roy Nichols he was one of the best. He passed away a few years ago and we all sure miss him. I have been blessed to work with one of the best singers in the world. And to work for 42years with him has been a pleasure.
Thanks again to all of my steel guitar friends.
Norm Hamlet
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1501587

Excellent work Ian!! Ya gotta love this forum

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 19 Apr 2016 9:28 am

There are a few reasons why E9 would not be the front apron neck in the early days.

Sho-Bud, on its low cross shaft Permanents placed the E9 neck on the inside because of the center controls they placed between necks. The cross shafts for pedals 7 and 8 would collide with the controls, so the C6 neck needed to use short cross shafts that did not cross the centerline -- the front neck.

On cable guitars such as Bigsbys, pedal changes were few or none on the front neck because you with the front neck you could not transfer pedal crank power with a cable to a pulley and then make a 90 degree turn to go straight to a changer finger. Bigsby did eventually accomplish it with stacked pulleys that rerouted cables to the front neck changer but those changes had more resistance with the cable reroutes.

Bigsbys that were not cable guitars definitely needed room for the mechanics to operate the keyhead plungers, and if the front neck could be avoided it was better. There are guitars like DALAND (Don Davis/Hank Garland/Shot Jackson) that keyhead plungers on both of the necks, but that is rare. My DALAND, the first one made and used by Don Davis until he was so frustrated with it that he threw it in the mud and left it there for years, has two pedals and three plungers on the front neck but the mechanics would work better if the plungers were on the near side neck. This is an August 1954 guitar, by the way, with Ray Butts eight string Filtertrons before Filtertrons existed.

Wright had the same issue. Norm Hamlet played both Wright Customs and a Bigsby before his Fender, Russ-Ler and whatever and his GFI. Perhaps he was used to E9 or E9-ish necks on the near side?

Fender, with its stacked pulley cassette mounted at the key head end of the cabinet frame was not the best design for smooth pedal action, but it did the most possible to minimize the negative impact on cables pulling fingers off line -- not in a straight line -- becsuse the pull angle was reduced as much as possible.

(edited to fix typos)

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 19 Apr 2016 11:22 am

I have never seen Ralph as a youngster, but there was no doubt in my mind that this was Norm. The dead giveaway to me was the haircut. Every time I have seen him, he had his hair cut and styled that way.

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 30 Aug 2017 7:17 am

Has anyone actually used a double E9 â€“with duplicate setups on both necks? I often thought that, for touring, it would be handy to have a spare neck in case you popped a string during a show. (A guitarist can just grab a backup guitar; not so for a pedal steel player.)

If you had the duplicate necks, you wouldnâ€™t have to constantly worry about having fresh strings. You could just replace them as they broke. This is the height of laziness, I know, but I have seriously considered such a setup!

scott murray · Post by **scott murray** » 30 Aug 2017 9:53 am

I remember seeing a Franklin with a "baritone" E9 tuning on the back neck. I always wanted to try that out

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 30 Aug 2017 11:41 am

Greg Vincent wrote:Has anyone actually used a double E9 â€“with duplicate setups on both necks? I often thought that, for touring, it would be handy to have a spare neck in case you popped a string during a show. (A guitarist can just grab a backup guitar; not so for a pedal steel player.)

If you had the duplicate necks, you wouldnâ€™t have to constantly worry about having fresh strings. You could just replace them as they broke. This is the height of laziness, I know, but I have seriously considered such a setup!

What if they also play C6? But the idea isn't a bad one for players who don't touch the C6 neck.

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 30 Aug 2017 12:01 pm

Yeah, Richard, this setup would only be of interest to a player who is 1.) Too lazy to learn C6, and 2.) Too lazy to change strings regularly.

...which is a perfect description of ME!

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 30 Aug 2017 12:17 pm

Greg Vincent wrote:Has anyone actually used a double E9 â€“with duplicate setups on both necks? ...

The pedals and levers would be problem. If you had both necks connected to the A-B-C pedals and standard levers, the action would be really stiff. Crossover systems are iffy, and using the C6 pedals for the second E9 neck would be awkward

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