purchased an Emmons on Craigslist... not sure how I did

[Jon Schimek]

Saw an emmons S-10 3x0 (no knees) pop on the local craigslist and having never played one before I did a little research and thought I'd see what the hype was all about.

From the pics I thought I was looking at a S-10 bolt-on but when I got there only half the strings have the ability to change pitch...Well it sounded pretty good and I drove a bit to get there so I took a shot at it, but I'm not sure it was a wise decision:

If you look closely you can see strings 1,2,7,8,9 are on a bar not a finger.



[/img]
Its a sticker logo.





Sorry about the picture sizes...

Anyways I have several questions I need help/advice with:
Did I pickup a students model?
Can you tell me anything about this guitar (I dont see a serial)?
Can i upgrade the changer to accommodate a knee?
I called around before I saw the changer and got estimates of about 300$ per lever, but now it looks substantially more complicated as I'd need way more parts, is it worth upgrading or is this going to be a money pit?
As a reference, I paid $800 bucks for this, an old case, and a emmons volume pedal.

I feel a bit dense for buying a guitar I knew so little about, especially when i already have a great setup, but for some stupid reason I'm always on a look out for these stupid things.

-Jon

[Lane Gray]

I've never seen a pull-release Emmons like that.
Those are Emmons pedals, and a mess of Emmons parts.
But mostly mess, near as I can tell.
I think someone took an S-10, removed the changer, and dropped some pull-release fingers in it.

[Bob Hoffnar]

That looks like a 60's Emmons to me. The pickup looks original. I think in parts alone you did better than $800. It will take a full rebuild to get it up to gear. You will need a pretty complete changer at the least.

It looks like a 60's bolt on neck and 60's pedals. I would find a guy who will help you do a full restoration or sell it to somebody who is interested in that level of project.

Looks like a nice steel. It would be great if you get back to its original playing condition.

[Doug Beaumier]

Yes, it's in nice cosmetic condition on top. The underside needs work and it needs a lot of hard-to-find parts. The original push/pull changer is gone and someone has cobbled some fingers in. You need a complete p/p changer. Most of the parts for the knee levers can be fabricated, the levers, the rods, etc, but the bellcranks may be difficult to find. A complete restoration, parts and labor, will cost more than the $800 you spent on the guitar IMO.

[Paul Sutherland]

That looks like it could be a fun project. The guitar is definitely worth the effort, but you will need to spend more money. The changer is the big issue, but someone has to have one they can sell you. Once you have the proper changer installed, the rest is fairly easy with a little guidance.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Keep in mind that a 67 ish bolt on S10 PP when it's in fully rebuilt is worth at very least $3000.

[Carl Heatley]

Did they cut up the end plate at the changer end?
It would be good to see more pics.

[Herb Steiner]

My opinion, and completely MY OWN, follows. Others mileage may vary.

First, it's a vintage guitar and had it not been profoundly, majorly kluged, would be a sweet horn. I have three of that very model and vintage and love them. It breaks my heart to see things like this take place.

JMHO, but based on my fairly extensive experience in refurbishing and restoring old Emmons guitars, it's going to be a pretty expensive project to get it correctly operating, and to what extent the restoration is performed. IOW, it WILL be a money pit, a deep one. But read on.

The big ticket items are going to be the changer, correct knee levers/crossbars, other missing undercarriage parts, and the bellcranks.

The labor alone is going to be AT LEAST $750, probably more. That doesn't include the optional tig-welding the extraneous holes drilled into the back of the neck tailpiece. By your questions, I am assuming that you're inexperienced with this type of guitar and that you'd have an expert Emmons mechanic do the work and not tackle the job yourself.

The simplest and best way is to send the guitar to Mike Cass, Tommy Cass, Billy Knowles, or Lynn Stafford (there are others also but those four come to mind) and tell them to make the guitar whole. Be sure to be sitting down when you get the cost estimate. Perhaps have a strong adult beverage or smelling salts handy.

Four knee levers alone will be $1000 +/-. Lord knows what undercarriage parts are missing. Changer will also be costly.

Don't expect to come out of this under what you could purchase a guitar like this complete here in the real world, at least $3000 +/- or more. But being underwater on a vintage horn like this is only a factor of reselling. Keeping it as a personal player guitar, it's one of the coolest S-10s out there and would definitely be a keeper.

My philosophy is that the Universe demands that these instruments be made whole again, regardless of resale value. It's not always about dollars and cents, but about "doing the right thing" and adding value to the world.

That said, you could recoup your $800 by selling the guitar to a restorer who 1) has the correct parts on hand, and 2) has the tools and skills to bring the guitar back to life. Or you could part the guitar out individually and reclaim the money you've spent.

[Chris Lucker]

Emmons made non-pedal guitars with no fingers at all where every string anchored through a hole in the tail, just as most of your strings do. I cannot tell from your photo if there are indeed ten holes in the tail to hold all ten strings? I suspect this guitar started as one of those and someone tried to make it a pedal steel.

Herb gave you a good description of the work involved. Mike Cass has done a Factory Authorized update of one of the non pedal guitars. By the way, the difference when Mike Cass does the work, the change is noted in the Factory Records as a Factory change, not one done by an outside mechanic. Something to consider.

[Doug Beaumier]

I broke even on a restoration like this a couple of years ago. A black S-10 bolt-on (66-67). It had no knee levers and a dead pickup when I got it. I had it restored and a year later I sold it for the same amount I had put into the guitar. And that one Did have it's p/p changer. Like Herb said, a restorer with spare parts, machining tools, and skill could work his magic on this, but for most us it would be money pit, albeit a fun one.

[Bob Carlucci]

Personally, I would talk to a couple of builders, or a repair guy with some smarts, and PARTS... That steel could have a modern all pull system installed and with parts that are currently available at a reasonable price. All the original Emmons parts that are removed could be sold to help pay for the new parts, and the refit.
I have seen several old steels here that were retrofit with modern undercarriages. Really the best thing would be to have it restored to original, but the cost might scare you.. I have seen a couple old steels with fessenden systems underneath, and they worked well. same thing with Desert Rose... Both those builders will help out.. Also I bet Jim Palenscar would have no problem fitting a modern changer into that guitar. It all comes down to what you want to spend.. In any case, you will need to make some calls.. please keep us posted,,,, bob

[Jon Schimek]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the advice. It is very helpful. I have been talking with Lynn and he's been really helpful. In fact I called him before I went in so we both got a surprise. This is going to be a real struggle to figure out. I think my plan of attack is to get what's there lubricated and playing smoothly as is... Give it some time and see if I fall in love. I'm not too interested in parting it out as it just feels dirty. I have to soul search to decide if I want to be that mediocre player who has a sick instrument and then I have to figure out how to make fun of myself if I am. Then I have to sell a bunch of stuff to make room and money.

As just a comment to the thread for the record, I'm pretty confident this guitar is in factory condition with respect to the endplate/changer:


A keen eye will notice that the buttons for the non fingered strings go through the end plate... the strings with fingers do not. Maybe not definitive, but in talking to a few folks it isn't entirely shocking that this would be made.

-Jon

[John Bresler R.I.P.]

Michael Yahl at www.psgparts.com could probably machine the fingers for you. He's an excellent source for parts and is very reasonable. You might try to find someone close by who knows a lot about Emmons push/pulls to try to list all the parts necessary to make this steel original.

Just my $.02

[Paul Sutherland]

I've never seen or heard of a steel like this, but it does look like it was made original just as you found it. The last picture seems to settle things for me.

Maybe you should just leave it as it is, clean it up, and play it. It's limited in what it can do, but maybe worth more as a one of a kind steel that hasn't been molested. Plus there's that whole money pit thing.

[richard burton]

A simple fix would be to get 10 solid fingers made, and make it into a pull-release steel, like an old Marlen.

Knee levers and bellcranks can be made in a shed, using basic tools.

[Lane Gray]

Emmons on top, Perm underneath.
I like the way you think, Richard.

[Chris Lucker]

Mike Cass points out a few things.
The right end plate is likely a left end plate that is newer than the guitar. The tabs are newer looking and there is no serial number.

The top of the neck is not Factory jewelling. That is done with Scotchbrite. The way Duane Marrs and Bobbe Seymour did it.
Did the guitar used to have six pedals? Is the flocking removed from the apron bushings?

[chris ivey]

interesting bit of history.
sell it and buy a steel you can play.

[Herb Steiner]

A simple fix would be to get 10 solid fingers made, and make it into a pull-release steel, like an old Marlen.

Knee levers and bellcranks can be made in a shed, using basic tools.

That would void the warranty, wouldn't it?

[chris ivey]

also, it's 'not' an old wrap around bolton neck. it's got the notch the poillow blocks sit in.
and anyway, who cares? it's a singleneck!

[Jack Stanton]

Doesn't Promat sell replacement changers and parts? If your main concern is to make it playable, they'd be metric but probably would work.
If your goal is to restore to original, strap in, it's going to be a bumpy ride!

[Billy Carr]

Looks like it could be a nice non-pedal guitar with 1 thru 8 tuned to a E13th and then 9 & 10 could be used for low end notes. Just my .02 here.

[J R Rose]

Hey Jon, From what others have said it must have come from factory that way. If so I would not do anything to it other than clean it up and play it as is. I would think it is a rare find and if you molest it that will change the value forever. I would think of it as an investment and I think in time it will be worth a lot more money. Just my 2 cents, J.R. Rose

[Jason Duguay]

Looks like a fine honky tonk machine to me. There's a lot of music in them simple three pedals.

[Jon Schimek]

Last night I was able to locate a invoice/serial in the 2000s, and I was able to confirm that the two endplates are unique, not just two key-side end plates. So in the end I'm comfortable concluding that this is how it came out of the factory.

Thanks for all of the comments. I think for now I'm going to see how I like a 3 pedal steel before making any big decisions. Its so light without all of those pesky levers and it does sound good. Its far from the smoothest playing machine, but hopefully I'll learn a bit about setting it up over time.

I really appreciate the comments and a few people who reached out to help... really cool. It's a really cool scene here.

Thanks for taking the time!!!

-Jon