6 string pedal steels?

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 10 Mar 2016 10:20 pm

I have seen Fessenden six shooters on craigslist selling for $450, $425, and $385. Jerry sells lever and pedal parts that would let you add a change for about $100.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 10 Mar 2016 10:37 pm

Carter Starters usually sell for more on eBay than on the Forum. I think it's because they're bought by people just starting, or wannabe steelers, and they haven't done their homework on prices. Often the guitars are just advertised as Carter S10, 3+4, without any mention of the fact that they're student instruments. The same thing tends to go for Mavericks. The sellers often avoid mentioning that they're student models.

Tommi Toijonen · Post by **Tommi Toijonen** » 10 Mar 2016 11:24 pm

Alan, what's wrong with Carter Starter? I haven't found any flaws* with it - but what would I know since I've never even tried a pro model of any brand. Just wondering what would be better with a pro steel.

I haven't got an answer from WBS what the 6/3/4 model would cost, but they said they are able to build that with no problem.

* except one knee lever once let itself go, but I fixed it down and dirty.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 11 Mar 2016 12:18 am

Tommi Toijonen wrote:[...] what's wrong with Carter Starter?

Mushy pedals/levers, and total lack of sustain ..?
Oh well, I have only tried a Carter Starter once while I was setting it up for a newbee a year ago, and my judgement was based on comparison with Dekleys that are anything but mushy and have quite good sustain.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Mar 2016 4:23 am

b0b wrote: There are several good reasons for someone to play a 6-string pedal steel, but cost isn't one of them. There just isn't that much difference in price.

finally, thank you...

and remember, this is not a diss on 6 stringers..

if it IS only about cost and if the difference is only a couple of hundred bucks, one could easily make the case that spending the couple of hundred extra bucks for the added musical benefits would be a very WISE decision.

Thus we get back to cost is NOT a fundamental reason to grab a 6 stringer.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 11 Mar 2016 6:00 am

b0b wrote:There's a big market of boomer-age electric guitarists (with $ to spend) who just can't get into closely spaced strings and complicated tunings.

It's not just cost, but I got a deal, which worked for me.
It's like a haiku, like Lane says, something abbreviated, fits in where I am easily, compact.

It's about a six-stringer that will make a good entry-level psg to attract folks who are daunted by ten-strings.
It's my opinion that many would move up to an S10 or 12 when they find out how much more you can do with it, or when they hear
Afternoon of a Faun. Closer string-spacing becomes a good trade-off at that point.

Mike Perlowin wrote: "Great minds discuss ideas.
Common minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people" Elanor Roosevelt.

I've been looking for the third line. Thanks.

Now if I could just find that thread from ten years ago....

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 11 Mar 2016 11:11 am

Tommi Toijonen wrote:Alan, what's wrong with Carter Starter? I haven't found any flaws* with it - but what would I know since I've never even tried a pro model of any brand....

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ter+farter

Check out the above discussion. The Carter Starter has been discussed in detail many times before,so this isn't the place to go into it. Let me just say that the difference between it an a professional instrument is like the difference between monochrome and colour. When you upgrade to a professional instrument it will be an eye-opener.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 11 Mar 2016 11:31 am

Well b0b, where are those $600 10-string guitars when I am looking for them?

(Actually I just bought a Lone Star E-lite and it is truly a beautifully made six-string guitar.) If that was a common occurrence everywhere, then the price floor would definitely be low enough. Moreover I would say that if you can stand the string spacing, don't ever pass on a decent 10-string at that price. So Tony Prior, yes at that price I totally agree with you.

Many people are not aware of the Steel Guitar Forum. Craigslist and Ebay are better-known. Since the demise of the Carter Starter there isn't even a PSG presence at the big name music retailers. The realities that many newbies face are far different than what forum members are accustomed to.

b0b, you know that the availability of decent alternatives at a given price point has an effect on competition. If there was nothing at or around $600 it would be reasonable to expect that the prices you cite would have been higher. The market conditions exert influence on new entries, i.e. the new resale of a used guitar. It is also noteworthy that the Forum audience is far more sophisticated than the rest of the country at large, and that also has impact on the resales offered on that site.

This is one of the best industry portals I have had the opportunity to observe. So, knowing that the builders read it, I hope they realize that John Fabian was visionary in his efforts to grow the market. I don't see any 10 string manufacturer pushing the envelope like he did. Today's builders have attained quality but fail to attain ubiquity. The pedal steel is not a ubiquitous instrument. That is the challenge before them.

Some are saying that the pedal steel is not for everyone. That is pretty much the same as sticking your head in the sand. Failure to grow the market will likely culminate in its eventual collapse.

I believe that a 6 string guitar is a great compromise for an entry level instrument--something vendors can afford to sell as a gateway instrument-- and would probably take off if it was given more exposure nationwide. I believe it is necessary to be able to compete with mid-range acoustic guitars, which seem to be enjoying a large volume of sales judging by the number of alternatives being sold. YMMV.

I want to live forever and I want pedal steel guitars to be right there with me

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 11 Mar 2016 12:39 pm

It's up to you b0b. With position and privilege come responsibility.
A good six-string steel for $600. Lots of them. You can do it.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 11 Mar 2016 1:11 pm

I think "under $1000" is a better target. Ultralight pull release guitars feel really flimsy to me, especially when you push the knee levers. A good PSG needs some mass for both stability and tone. And since there's no standard for 6-string copedent, even beginners should have the opportunity to experiment with tunings.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 11 Mar 2016 3:22 pm

I believe that a 6 string guitar is a great compromise for an entry level instrument--

Here's where I part company. The playing of the PSG requires a complete rethinking of how to make music.
The ten string tuning is a bridge, and the 6 is a pier.
There's oodles of uses for a pier, but it ain't no bridge. If you want a bridge, you don't start with a pier.

But if someone wants to launch a boat or go fishing, a pier beats a bridge.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 11 Mar 2016 3:33 pm

How good is good?

Hudson makes some pretty good guitars for a pretty good price.

Don't make the mistake of trying to make a "student" guitar with the quality of a pro guitar. MSA didn't. Dekely didn't. Carter didn't. There are people on this forum that learned on a little buddy, or a maverick. Neither is pro quality.

Get your engineer involved and see if he can engineer a solution given price constraints. Understand that a student model is a compromise to get new people playing. Engineering is problem solving. A good engineer takes your values and goes to work. A bad one just throws money at the problem.

Tommi is proof that the Carter Starter works as a beginner model, even though some say it is flimsy and has mushy action. When it is your first guitar it's plenty good enough and you are learning and growing. That's the point.

A beginner doesn't need it all on day 1. I guess just as others stand by their statements, I'll stand by this one. So the question is whether you grow the market or wait for it to collapse.

Just saying.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 11 Mar 2016 4:39 pm

"Not everyone wants or needs a 10-string, traditional steel. There are lots of other playing styles out there. But Don plays country on his Cougar, and Tom Brumley sure as heck played country (as did a host of others) on 8-strings."

Jim Sliff , 21 February 2006

Still makes sense today. You want to hunt quail you take a 20 gauge. You want to hunt Elephants, well...you get it.

Pick your tools. If you only like hammers, then you try to make every application look like a nail.

The 6 string tuning that I take for granted is the inside 6 of the common e9 tuning: E F# G# B E G#.

Lane, You have to drive quite a few pilings before you can begin to build a bridge. I'd say the analogy is pilings to bridge not pier to bridge. One you can build on the other you can't. If you don't get that, then let's just agree to disagree. No skin off my back.

You know though Lane, your Haiku comment was pretty close to where I am at. The experience of having to play with only two pedals was really a wake up call for me. I was amazed at how much could be done with only that. So now as I move to what I believe is optimal, I am really focusing on what I can do with each change.

This is still the best argument for 6 string PSG:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qBddOD9pJU

What is missing? Tell us. Inquiring minds want to know.

Time to go play my Lone star. Love that thing.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 11 Mar 2016 5:25 pm

Lane

you really have no prospective on this coming
from guitar, dobro or whatever ,
you never started "cold " so to speak

a six will do any beginner for quite some time before they are ready to move up

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 11 Mar 2016 5:33 pm

Naah. Lap steel=pilings, 6-Shooter= pier, 10 string=bridge

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 11 Mar 2016 5:59 pm

Lane Gray wrote:Naah. Lap steel=pilings, 6-Shooter= pier, 10 string=bridge

Haha, Lane. Have you ever heard Bobby Black or Roger Edgington play a "piling?" I think you might rethink your analogy. ðŸ˜Ž

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 11 Mar 2016 7:17 pm

You left off Kayton Roberts. It's still a valid metaphor.

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 11 Mar 2016 7:34 pm

It is impossible to watch Kayton play, without a smile on your face.

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 11 Mar 2016 8:27 pm

Lane if you are saying you can't build on learning the inside 6 first you are kidding right?

A pier is a thing that goes a little way and is not a part of connecting to the other side.

The inside 6 is the foundation. If you are saying you can't build on that, then please explain what is missing here and why it is not useful to know this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qBddOD9pJU

What is missing? Tell us. Inquiring minds want to know.

AAh never mind. lol.
$:\$

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 11 Mar 2016 11:08 pm

ok Lane

i'll play your game ,
what happens when you build
a bridge over water without 1st building the pier ?

it sinks !!!

need to learn those six string's first THEN the bridge haha

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 12 Mar 2016 2:38 am

this is really becoming quite a lame discussion...it's now aiming the 6 stringer market towards "price" and price alone. Which it is not...

How about a student buys a 6 stringer, a real good one, best quality ever. This student now hears some real nice stuff , orders some TAB programs and then finds out they are mostly , if not all, written for 10 string guitars and do indeed employ the so called "not needed extra 4 strings".

Now what ? Wait for a few people to write TABS for only 6 string Pedal Steels ?

Even today, with the majority of Pedal Steels being 10 stringers, many folks buying and using TAB are requesting all of the TAB writers to use the same 10 string copedent so it can match their 10 string guitar.

So which is it ?

Then we are reading , again, learn those inside six strings first, then move up. Well, once again, those inside 6 strings are the exact same 6 strings on the 10 string Steel.

So lets see if I have this logic correct, if it's about PRICE...spend $600 today , learn the AB Peds and a lever or so, then in 6 months step up to a $900 /10 string guitar with 3 and 4 because now you know the basics?

IS this the argument now ?

By the way, there is a reason why the 10 stringers are called the E9th Chromatic tuning, it's actually not the "E9th tuning" being referred to here.

Bill Lowe · Post by **Bill Lowe** » 12 Mar 2016 5:38 am

this is really becoming quite a lame discussion...

AMEN!!!!!

Tommi Toijonen · Post by **Tommi Toijonen** » 12 Mar 2016 6:26 am

C'mon with those analogies, guys, please!

Three fret guitars, bridges & pries, hammers & nails, elephants, haikus and fishing...

And back to the topic: just got mail from WBS. Their 6-stringer with 3 pedals and 4 knee levers I requested would cost almost exactly the same amount of money as their basic line 10-stringer with the same pedals and levers. That is quite a bit over 1000 euros (shipping and case included).

Thinking time 'tis. It really should be a fine and sturdy instrument if I were to order such. But how to know without trying. Maybe I have to make a trip to Germany to check out their stuff.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 12 Mar 2016 8:29 am

Tommi Toijonen wrote:Thinking time 'tis. It really should be a fine and sturdy instrument if I were to order such. But how to know without trying. Maybe I have make a trip to Germany to check out their stuff.

I have only heard good things about WBS - do a search on the forum. I know that British Steelie Sarah Jory is (or was) an endorsee.

But it's a lot of money to spend without trying out one first isn't it? I wonder if he has a basic one in stock that you could try and, if you like it, if he'd be able to customise it in time for you to take it back with you?

Dave Dube · Post by **Dave Dube** » 12 Mar 2016 8:34 am

I am signing off of this thread. It has become a waste of time. $:\$

There seem to be several threads in this: first that the chromatic tuning is sacrosanct and you should not even try to play anything less than all 10 strings, and certainly should not buy a guitar that does not have 10 strings.

The second thread is that you can learn the heart of the tuning and the vast majority of technique on a guitar tuned to the inside 6.

The third thread is that the use of pedal steel seems to be shrinking and the instrument may very well go the way of the piccolo banjo if something is not done to make the instrument more ubiquitous across all demographic groups, especially the group that made country music a viable industry. (This is an ongoing concern that is already decades old on this forum.)

I have seen recommendations to wait and buy a 10 string and for the mean while just buy a lap steel, or an extension nut and acoustic guitar. I never saw those suggestions meet with resistance, but suggest a 6 string PSG, and whoa, Katie bar the door!

There are at least 17 things one can learn and master on a 6 string and I sincerely doubt that will be done in 6 months. To suggest that will happen is just disingenuous, so if you won't converse fairly, then why bother at all?

I have put a link in to Brian Brewer's playing on a demo. I have asked detractors of the 6 string guitar to point out what is missing and what is wrong with his playing on that track several times, and none of the people who argue against the use of a six string have had the decency to even acknowledge the point, much less respond. It is simple to see why. Once again though, if you cannot actually converse, then why bother at all?

I have seen a goofy analogy that says the 10 string is a bridge to somewhere and the six string is a thing that goes nowhere. I have seen it denied that a 6 string tuned to the inside 6 is something that can be a foundation for playing the full tuning in time. That is false on the face of it, so at that point why argue?

Tommi, good luck in finding a guitar that fits your needs.