copedent vs written tab

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Mar 2016 2:39 am

Lots of discussion with regard to standardizing copedents , "if only all steel guitars were the same ". Well lets throw a monkey wrench into the mix .

regarding E9th, for the most part, many if not all 3+4 or 3+5 Pedal steels are indeed the same. Sure maybe one persons levers are in a different location but the levers do the same things , we raise and lower E's, who cares where the lever is, we raise 1, lower 6 or raise 7, lower 2 and we lower 9. And we may lower 5.

The beef , to me, appears to be "my guitar raises and lowers 4 and 8 over here and the tab says over there"..why can't the tab match my guitar ? I don't lower 5 with the X lever, I use the ... Lever..why can't the tab match my guitar ?

Well , short answer..it does.

I don't know how it all began, but beyond the ABC Peds we started assigning letters to the functional knee levers which can indeed be a bit confusing to some.

I am wondering why after the ABC Peds, the raises or lowers associated with knee levers were not just noted with a simple UP ARROW or DOWN ARROW . Or maybe even simpler, an R or an L . In that manner everyone would be able to match their own instrument to the written tab. Actually, to my way of thinking, they would actually have a much better understanding of their own instrument and it's mechanics.

I suspect we are on this road because way way back nobody ever expected an E9th Steel to have 5 knee levers as standard and the TAB mold was already set.

regarding C6th, thats just as easy. 5 Peds, call em' what you will but they are STANDARDIZED. Same thing with the knee levers, 3 L, 4 R or up/down arrows etc..

There are so many variations and opinions of whats right or wrong with the way tab is written, but at the end of the day, they are all saying the same thing.

all comments appreciated. Play nice ...

Tim Russell · Post by **Tim Russell** » 2 Mar 2016 3:20 am

Regarding knees, I personally find it easier to understand LKL, LKR, and so on.

To me, it makes more sense, similar to the good old days of when you would purchase a lawn mower and the control actually had the words "fast", and "slow" on it, instead of the unintelligible pictures of a rabbit and a turtle...

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 2 Mar 2016 3:28 am

From looking at pretty much every copedent I find and wondering if I should change mine (before deciding I might as well just try to learn the one I've got), I'd say that the ABC pedals and e raise and lowers are pretty much standard but there is so much variation on all the other changes - especialy on strings 1 and 2 that I wouldn't like to say what was "standard" beyond that.

Using R an L won't work because that varies between guitars. The only way to standardise tab for knee levers would be to agree standard letters for their function in the same way that we have for the 3 main pedals. A lot of people seem to use the Jeff Newman D E and F designation but just as many don't.

We've got 26 letters to choose from so maybe this forum could be the place to standardise the naming of knee levers (and extra pedals) once and for all.

As someone once said to me - "The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from".

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Mar 2016 3:33 am

Tim Russell wrote:Regarding knees, I personally find it easier to understand LKL, LKR, and so on.

Ha ! No argument from me but what if I write a Tab and state LKL and your lever for the same pull is RKL ?

Jazz ?

Tim Russell · Post by **Tim Russell** » 2 Mar 2016 3:44 am

Tony Prior wrote:
Tim Russell wrote:Regarding knees, I personally find it easier to understand LKL, LKR, and so on.

Ha ! No argument from me but what if I write a Tab and state LKL and your lever for the same pull is RKL ?

Jazz ?

Tabs should be written from the standpoint of string changes; it is up to the player to determine what his/her guitar does.

Fortunately for me, I've never had to rely on tab very much. God has blessed me with a good ear, coupled with the fact that I was immersed in music at a very early age, so that when I hear certain string pulls/lowers, etc., I already know what is happening without looking at a tab.

But I understand this is not the case for everyone, especially for those that may pick up an instrument later in life. It is for this reason that tab/music should be "standardized" so we're all on the same page.

Funny story...in my early learning days, a couple of experienced players informed me about the trick of slowing down the record to learn a certain lick. I was confused..."why?", I asked them, as I already hear the lick, understand it and know how to play it. Smart #$%^ young whippersnapper, they would say.

That all being said, I will admit that I don't know the Nashville Number System. I would like to look at it, possibly learn it at some point, just for the satisfaction of knowing it, although I know I will never play a gig anymore where I would need to know it.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Mar 2016 4:43 am

I have no problem with each tab writer assigning their own letters to the knees, or up/down arrows, or #/b.
There should be little confusion when you see a change on string 4; it's either the C pedal, the E raises, or the E lowers.
There should be little confusion when you see a change on string 6: it's the B pedal, a half step lower or a whole step lower. With a bare minimum of music theory, if the tab lists the chord in use in that measure, which change is used should be obvious.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 2 Mar 2016 5:22 am

I like the letter designations for knee levers the best, although I've seen other ways of identifying them, and some seem to be cryptic. Jeff Newman's "E" and "F" come to mind and make sense. "LKL" means nothing since it can be several different changes depending on whether the person has the Emmons or Day set up.

The worst scenario is the author did not include a chart of what their designations are - I've seen that several times.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Mar 2016 5:34 am

Lane Gray wrote:
There should be little confusion , which change is used should be obvious.

I wonder how many look at tab and don't relate the string pull to a lever but rather relate the pull to a letter which points to a knee lever.

did I say that right ?

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 2 Mar 2016 5:35 am

Just when I almost had my own system worked out, we're going to standardize it to someone else system.
I'm 72 for crapes sake! I had to watch the video to see who I was this morning.

On my mess...

Pedals ABC=standard(Does what you would expect)
String 4&8 raise, F=standard(pulls the strings from E to F
String 4&8 lower, E=More or less standard(lowers strings from E to Eb)
Sometimes called a D?
V=You decide what it does. Mine lowers 5 & 10 1/2 step.

This is where it gets strange:
1st string is raised to G & Ab(A is already used)
2nd string is raised to E(E is already used)
2nd string is lowered to D/C#(May already be used by some)
7th string is raised to G with the 1st string(Hummm!)
9th string is lowered to C#(C is already used)

Franklin=Don't have it(F is already used)
X=What's that?(But... X is not used yet)

When I write tab, I keep it as simple as my mind and for anything out there or strange, I add a legend.
That works for me when I go back to tab I wrote yesterday. Tongue in cheek, but dilemma realized!

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 2 Mar 2016 5:51 am

Dick Sexton wrote: This is where it gets strange:
1st string is raised to G & Ab(A is already used)
2nd string is raised to E(E is already used)
2nd string is lowered to D/C#(May already be used by some)
7th string is raised to G with the 1st string(Hummm!)
9th string is lowered to C#(C is already used)

If we were standardising, what would be the problem with just assigning new, unused letters of the alphabet?

The existing pedals don't relate to note names anyway, except by accident (my B pedal raise my G# to A and my A pedal raises my B string to C#).

If those changes you mentioned were universally designated as M N Q S and Z it wouldn't take you long to remember which letter was assigned to which change. After all, you only have to remember the ones for your own guitar. I'd have to learn new names for my 5 levers (3 if we kept Jeff Newman's E and F) and reckon I could handle that.

I could immediately scan a new tab and find out if I had all the necessary changes and look up any unfamiliar ones if necessary.

What if you have 6 pedals and 8 levers? Well if you have a brain that can use all of them then I'm sure it would be capable of remembering those 14 letter names?

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 2 Mar 2016 6:31 am

No problem...

Stay away from R, might be mistaken for raise.
Stay away from L, Well you know...

G for 1st string raise...(And 7 if ganged)
D for 2nd & 9th string lower...

V, as assigned by tabber, 5th or 6th string lower(Should be obvious to reader).

Lets get this going! I'm flexible...

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Mar 2016 6:36 am

I think I prefer # for a half step raise, ## for a whole step raise, b for a half step lower, bb for a whole step lower. Copedent doesn't matter, and the goofiness of the Emmons 70s tab (D was the E raises and F was the 1st string half step raise with 6th string whole step drop. Assigned by left to right in alphabetical order) goes away. I can follow nearly any tab, since I just look at the string and figure out which changes move it.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Mar 2016 6:44 am

we're already confused and we haven't got past the two E levers yet !

I'm starting to like up and down arrows and R or L more than I thought I would ! No mistaking what they mean. BUT, you do need to know where the lever is on your guitar that actually does that up or down thing....

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 2 Mar 2016 6:51 am

What systems are out there?

1. Mu-Sym Tab... #,##,b,bb

2. Emmons... alphabetical left to right

3. Newman... ABC,EF,D,G

4. +,++,-,--(this system is similar to 1. just using different symbols)
Note: This doesn't work well if the space key on the keyboard is used like so... 5--5-- to indicate a pedal move from 5 to a 5A,
if the ---- also indicate a string. JMO!

5. Up and down arrows(I don't have up and down arrows on my keyboard) How does that work... ^ V

6. As used by Doug Jernigan/Herby Wallace... Pedals used indicated below the Neck/String staff.

7. Billy Cooper/Buddy Charleton... Pedals used indicated above the Neck/String staff.

Any other systems?

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Mar 2016 9:38 am

from the beginning of tab all that mattered was 'what string', 'what fret', and 'raised or lowered'.
most of us figured that out over 30 years ago.

Frank Freniere · Post by **Frank Freniere** » 2 Mar 2016 9:44 am

Mu-Sym tab is fairly unambiguous.

Tim Russell · Post by **Tim Russell** » 2 Mar 2016 10:17 am

chris ivey wrote:from the beginning of tab all that mattered was 'what string', 'what fret', and 'raised or lowered'.
most of us figured that out over 30 years ago.

Yup - simple and easy to understand. How it should be.

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 2 Mar 2016 11:30 am

Good read...

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/002570.html

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Mar 2016 11:58 am

I agree that you only need to know the string, fret, and whether or not it raises or lowers. Mu-Sym Tab is totally unambiguous and intuitive because it goes right to the function of the change. IMO, it's the only 'system' that has a truly logical basis for adoption as a 'standard'. But I'm confident that will never happen because people are gonna do it their way and there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Most people can understand the typical Newman approach for E9:

ABC pedals
D = 2nd/9th string lower (1 and/or 2 semitones)
E = E=>Eb lower (except some people interchange D and E)
F = E=>F raise
G might mean G# lower to G or F# or F# raise to G or G# - that one should be clarified on the tab itself, IMO
X = B=>Bb lower

IMO, if one is gonna use letters like this and not a string-raise/lower notation, then I think it's smart to include a legend at the top so there's no confusion.

In its defense, the Newman system is simple and isn't tied to the location of the change. Insisting that it has to be LKL, LKR, and so on is sort of like insisting that to read a map, you have to point it in the direction you're going to be able to follow it. I know several people like that, and I honestly doubt they'd ever be able to figure out how to play pedal steel. They just can't visualize things abstractly. I think that's an important skill for this instrument.

Scientists and engineers have sometimes immensely complex notational systems, and there are sometimes multiple ways to notate things. Practitioners are expected to know multiple 'standard' notational systems, but a journal article is expected to explain any truly non-standard notations. None of this is hard if you have a mind for this kind of stuff. I'd say the same for pedal steel - if you have the mind for this kind of thing, it should not present a serious problem to translate from one notational system to another.

Dick - I was just about to reference that thread of Herb's. I totally agree with his reasoning.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 2 Mar 2016 12:38 pm

Cannot remember what system that was used in "Scotty"'s "instructions for beginners" booklet I bought along with the PSG when I started playing - in the early -80s. I do remember that it didn't take long to grasp how the system worked on the PSG.
Took a lot longer - much practice - to play somewhat fluid, and since then I have only looked at tabs when I wasn't sure how to play a tune from note-sheets alone.

Over the decades following I have pretty much lost the ability to read sheet music somewhat fluid and think in keys, for lack of need/practice. Need a refresh...

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 2 Mar 2016 2:45 pm

Speaking as a beginner who is working through various teachers' tab, I have to declare that I find the tab concept necessary but frustrating. I read notation, and I am used to being able to glance at a sheet of music and straight away know roughly how it goes, whereas with tab the melody and rhythm are invisible so you need to know the song first. On the other hand, if you transcribe PSG music as notation, then the number of annotations required (fret, strings, pedals) makes for a cluttered result which is harder to read - so tab it must be.

Herb Steiner's #, ##, b, bb system is the purest, as it tells what must happen to each string and you have to think how to achieve it; but in no time 8## starts to look like 8A anyway.

Scotty in the Mel Bay book uses A,B,C and E,F. No-one can be confused by that. You know where your E raises and lowers are - he didn't.

Don Sulesky in his EZ E9 course uses A,B,C and R,L meaning raise, lower. No confusion there either. (Some of the tunes are written in notation along the top which is a huge help. I wish everyone did that, but I guess not everyone can.)

Buddy Emmons in his Basic C6 uses 5,6,7,8 and f,g for the 4th string lower and raise. He introduces them one at a time and again there is no confusion.

If you read the explanations to these things before you dive in, I don't see a problem. If I'm missing something please say

P.S. Neil Flanz even names A and B the opposite way round. So you say "OK" and carry on...

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 2 Mar 2016 3:43 pm

I really don't think we will ever be able to narrow it down to "A" system.
Maybe we need to think out side the box...

Anyone have any trouble reading this?

1_________________________5_________
2___________________________________
3____________________________5

___
4________________5

-5_____________
5___________5-5

___________ 5

___
6______5-5

_______________________
7____5_____________________________
8__5_______________________________
9__________________________________
10_________________________________

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 2 Mar 2016 3:57 pm

Love it - much less boring to look at.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 2 Mar 2016 4:14 pm

If you tab out, "Devil Went Down To Georgia", you can use these not so "standard" changes.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 2 Mar 2016 4:22 pm

I have the Buddy Emmons course put out by the Emmons Guitar C. It lists the pedals/levers below the tab where the changes are. Often times with tab, I would find my equivalent lever, and mark it down below. I would mark them as RKR, LKL, etc...

But now I do prefer just putting the letter after the fret number. Easier to follow than having to look down under the tab.

I also don't like putting ##, b etc behind the fret numbers either. It makes the fret number and changes look cluttered and are harder for me to read.

The Steel Guitar Forum

copedent vs written tab

Do you understand Tab or is it confusing ?

copedent vs written tab

Rats...

Re: Rats...

Standardize um...

Ok...

Ok I get it...

So many systems...