Due you tune by ear???

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 14 Nov 2004 10:55 am

I carry an A=440 tuning fork in my case. Tap the fork and hold it over the pickup to amplfy the sound and tune the the A on the C6th neck to get a base, then go from there.

The 'worst' tuning problem I encounter regularly is with the lead guitar player who is using super light guitar strings and bending them so much that after a few tunes his guitar is way out, however, the singer is keying off of this guitar so the rest of the band sounds out of tune.

Yes, you must train your ear to hear whether you are in tune or not, PLUS be able to tell another bandmember diplomatically that he or she is out of tune. (You should be very, very careful of this depending on how much drinking, drugs or guns are on the bandstand!)

Thanx,
Jim

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 14 Nov 2004 12:10 pm

I LOVE this said by Paul Franklin>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm not convinced they would benefit me in the long run, because I believe a musician can lose his/her ability to distinguish pitch without constant training. If that happens, I can't play in tune. No tuner solves that problem.

Tuning by ear helps train my ears on a daily basis.

Paul
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
THAT to me is the whole ball of wax man. When ever ANY tuning or intonation or whatever comes up again> just refer to this said by Paul...>that is Awesome and coming from a Master himself. I'm sure Lloyd would say the exact same thing

.
Ricky

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 14 Nov 2004 12:48 pm

b0b,
Neither could I at first. After many years of doing this before tuners were available, I finally trained my ears. Now its easy. My advice to anyone in todays world is to always try tuning by your ear, no matter what, and then check your ear tuning with the tuner to see how close you are. Providing the player has an ear for music he/she should eventually not need the tuner.

Not trying to tune by ear in bad situations can never produce any hearing skills.

Nobody said playing this thing live was going to be easy.

Paul

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 14 Nov 2004 2:34 pm

Using a tuner is like me wearing glasses. I have lost some hearing through the years and now I am parinoid in using my ears for tuning so I now use a tuner for accuracy. I don't have an ego problem where I would sacrifice my tuning that using a tuner would take something away from my musical ability. Like anything else if it works, use it. On the subject of hearing, I read somewhere that Lloyd Greene had hearing damage and gave up playing for several years. Now I hear he is back playing again--Has he done something to improve his hearing? Does he use a tuner? Joe

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 14 Nov 2004 2:41 pm

I feel better now about never having owned a tuner 'till about a year ago. Always found "E" from somewhere (piano, record, tape, pitch pipe, one laying around on the floor) and went from there.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 14 November 2004 at 02:42 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 14 Nov 2004 2:51 pm

Ray, how are you doing? It was nice meeting you at The Best Westeren in Eire.Thanks for coming to hear us. Joe

Gary Carriger · Post by **Gary Carriger** » 14 Nov 2004 2:56 pm

Paul, Ricky and others...don't disagree that tuning by ear in the way to go. I tried the "straight tuning" on a tuner...didn't work for me. However, I agree with Joe M. After playing on bandstand for 35 years, my hearing ain't what it used to be. It is hard enough for me to distinguish what somewhat is saying in a noisy dancehall..much less hear some of the string harmonics. But I do find it peculiar that no one has mentioned the programmable tuners like the Petersons. That's what works for me now, in a noisy environment or on the bandstand in the middle of a song. I can touch up my tuning and no one can hear me. The tunings I use are from new strings on my axe, at home in my "quiet" music room....i.e tunings by ear. And I still regularly check my ears against the tuner when I can. Maybe won't be fine for everyone, but is what works for me.
Gary

Tim Bridges · Post by **Tim Bridges** » 14 Nov 2004 3:01 pm

I have found that if I tune my PSG by ear before we breakdown and setup for a gig, it stays pretty darn close to in tune. This wasn't the case when I played my old Sho-Bud Professional. It would change as fast as the weather. On the other hand, my Derby stays in tune, My G&L ASAT Deluxe stays in tune and my acoustic stays in tune. What drives me crazy is when people don't realize that they have an instrument that will not stay in tune and do nothing about it. Tune the E's on the E9th and the A's on the C6th with the tuner and do the rest by ear. Oh yea, have guitars that keep their tuning.

Richard Nelson · Post by **Richard Nelson** » 14 Nov 2004 7:07 pm

The gig I have involves about 3-4 hrs driving to get there, humping in the gear, setting up the PA, then my stuff . Then I tune with the in line tuner, then sound check , then hang around for 2-3 hrs, then get up to play , by which time the temperature has changed and its very noisy in the hall . I put in my ear plugs and off I go. Is this very different in America ? Come on people tuning by ear ? Can you trust your ears after all that ? Mind you with the racket in the gig , and the earplugs I still know when the guitar is slightly out. Or is it the singer ?

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 14 Nov 2004 8:23 pm

Jim Bates, I have encountered similar problems with guitarists using 9's and over gripping their guitars. Dis-intonation. There's another reason why I won't give up my in line tuner. I play five instruments on stage. Fiddle, steel, mandolin, guitar, and dobro. It would be a nightmare and impossible trying to keep all the instruments in tune on stage through out the night. We do three one hour sets. I do agree though that learning to tune by ear should be mandatory. This is a good thread. [This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 14 November 2004 at 08:24 PM.]

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 15 Nov 2004 8:01 am

.. I tuned by ear after getting the E and C notes from the tuner.

While I'm clearly not in the class of Mr. Franklin... that's EXACTLY how I tune. I have run into places where it was difficult, but to me the guitar always sounds more 'in tune' when tuned by ear. Tuning over the babble seems to get easier as time goes on.. and I think I play in tune better now than ever.

That said, once in a while I still get in a place where I just can't hear, then I resort to the tuner, and quietly 'tweak' to ear during the set. I think unobtrusively tweaking the tuning during the set is an art in itself.

Somehow reading the 'ear tuned' intervals off a tuner and replicating those settings doesn't seem to work for me. I always end up touching up something or other til it sounds right.
[This message was edited by Bill Terry on 15 November 2004 at 08:04 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Nov 2004 8:43 am

Thank you Paul. Numerous times I have mentioned here how important it is to "train your ear", only to be told by the masses that everyone (that plays in s big, current, band) uses a tuner nowadays, and considers it an essential item.

I feel somewhat vindicated.

Also, I feel Bob's comment about problems tuning with a "mixed" method (some JI and some ET) is not wholly correct. First, we must realize that any method will have some notes or intervals sounding "out". That's a fact, and nothing can change it! Second, remember that part of the necessary skill of playing this instrument is what I call "playing it in tune", (making necessary adjustments while you're playing). Most all of the pros have this skill. If you can't develop it, you'll never be a "top-ranked" player. Pros are always making minute adjustments to their bar so that it sounds good (in tune) while they're playing.

One of the things that still fascinates me is listening to players of 40-50 years ago, when electronic tuners were non-existent and steels were far inferior, mechanically, to those we have today. Those guys still sounded marvelous! Yeah, they had "cabinet drop", "axle flex", and some didn't even have roller bridges and nuts on their steels, but...

...they still managed to play in tune!

No wonder we call them "masters"!

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 15 Nov 2004 1:13 pm

Donny,you're right about playing in tune. It's necessay to be in tune thats why I use a tuner. Now are you saying your hearing -when tuning is better than what your tuner can do. What I'm getting from this post is,that it's better to tune by ear than using a tuner,that many players have more accurately in tuning if they tune by ear(What is a tuner just another toy?) Yes 50 years ago I tuned by ear like many of us but how many of you can't hear as good today as you did back then? I don't feel less of a player or have more or less skills because I use a tuner, Joe.WHAT WAS THAT YOU SAID? I didn't hear you

.

jerry harkins · Post by **jerry harkins** » 15 Nov 2004 1:45 pm

Get a Peterson,
Problem solved!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Nov 2004 3:34 pm

Joe, the idea is, foremost...it has to sound good! If it doesn't, it doesn't matter what the tuner says. Whether you use a tuner or not really isn't the issue. Whether you tune JI or ET really isn't the issue. The only issue is..."does it sound good while you're playing"? Can you play with keyboards or horns or other strings and make it sound good? Can you blend in harmoniously with everyone else in the band? Now, if you can't, you can't...a tuner won't help you when you're playing. Most of us do very little playing on the open strings, so nobody (well, almost nobody) even cares if the steel sounds good when you're not using the bar on the strings. How you sound when you play is what really counts!

Bar pressure affects bar placement.

The more downforce you use, the sharper your notes will be, and you simply have to compensate, there's no getting around it. Tuners, presets, and charts will only get you a starting point, in the ball park, as it were. They should be a reference only! The rest (which is what really counts), is up to the player alone. You have to please the other players and the audience. The tuner is really an adjunct.

Race car tuners use a timing light (their "tuning tool") for a starting point. And if the engine doesn't run right at maximum potential, they use their ears, and the their "seat of the pants" to get the most out of the engine. If the engine pings, they retard the timing...regardless of what the stupid timing light says! Tuning a steel takes a similar approach.

Look at it this way. If you were playing in a 6-piece band, and everyone else said.."you're playing flat", and you sounded like you were playing flat, wouldn't you change your tuning/playing to try to correct the problem? Or, would you just say..."This tuner says I'm perfect!", and ignore the "flat" sound, and everyone else's opinion?

The number one reason amateur steelers usually lose their job in a band is so the band can book for a lower price. That's simple economics.

The number two reason amateur steelers usually lose their job in a band is that they just can't consistently play in tune.

Nothing is more important than playing and sounding in tune. And for that, you need a good ear. Vocal stylists can sing off key and get away with it. Not so for pedal steel players![This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 15 November 2004 at 03:56 PM.]

Jimmy Douglas · Post by **Jimmy Douglas** » 15 Nov 2004 4:13 pm

For what its worth, On my S12pp I use an A fork and tune the third string with the pedal down to A and then use harmonics till the rest of it is ok. I have found that tuning the intervals of the A chord then the color tones with the pedals down is quickest for me. I have found I only have to use the end screws with new strings while they settle. I am no Push Pull expert and can imagine this approach may not be the best in a professional setting but it seems to work for now.

I felt I had more tuning issues when I owned the Legrande and used the electric tuner. But hey what do I know?

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 15 Nov 2004 8:06 pm

Donny I play in a 6pc. band ,with key,and guitar. Been with then for going on fours years. only play steel. I'm the bands sole steel player. No conplaints about playing in tune. The topic is do you tune by ear.Some times ,but most of the time I use a tuner. Playing in loud bars and clubs,using a tuner is better,than by ear for me At home in the bedroom where there is less noise,yes I could get by tuning by ear.I play about 4 to 6 gigs a month,plus band rehearsal.Joe [This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 15 November 2004 at 08:09 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 15 Nov 2004 9:03 pm

I could count the live gigs out or 2500 plus that I haven't had a tuner on one hand.

Once in a while I'll start the night without tuning on two or more night gigs, and it's always right there.

I tune straight up and when tuning without one I tune the G#s where they've got a little better than two beats to the second. Otherwise they're flat to keyboards or perfectly tuned guitars. The C# changes are tuned up similarly from no beats.

It's kind of hard to tune by ear when there's a lot of racket and other music going.

I leave that to the pros.

EJL

Jonathan Mitguard · Post by **Jonathan Mitguard** » 15 Nov 2004 10:19 pm

this is all very interesting. I have tuned by ear for many years, Recently I've been trying out a Petersen tuner. I set up the program to the specs that Jeff Newman developed. the guitar sounds in tune with this method but It has put me in a bit of a quandry because this means you start with the Es sharp. I'm not convinced that that is a good idea. Now with the comments here I question this concept even more. Hmmm

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 18 Nov 2004 12:14 pm

I have been tuning by ear since I started playing steel, in 1974. I use a set of three tuning forks that each measured perfect pitch (E A and C), for their own note, on a high quality tuner. Once I found a matched set I put them in my accessories case, which always hangs over the tuning keys of my C6 neck.

My method is to obtain a perfect E from an E tuning fork, on string 8, at the 12th fret harmonic, then I use my A440 fork to tune string 9 at the 7th fret harmonic. I use a C tuning fork to get my Middle C in tune (string 7, C6 neck), at the 12th fret harmonic.

After these strings/harmonics are zero-beated, I tune my other strings to them by using matching harmonics at various fret combinations. I call it "touch tuning by harmonics." I use the highest harmonics I can to stretch the scale upward, as I tune up the scale. Of course, this means that my open A Major will be slightly flat, due to cabinet drop from the 1st and 2nd pedals being mashed (the E's will drop so the A's will need to be tuned flat to zero-beat to the E's).

In some cases I find that having my open position A chord is important, so I'll tune the A on (pedal 2 down) string 6 to the 7th fret A-harmonic on string 9, or directly to my A-440 fork.

I also have to deal with loud club environments and have developed my ability to hear minute beat notes, usually at the highest combination of fret-touches possible. Sometimes this requires me to touch-tune harmonics at the 2nd, 3rd, 4th frets, which is quite difficult, but do-able. The best sustaining harmonics are created on frets 5, 7 and 12.

If there is a loud jukebox playing and I can't distinguish the harmonics, I use another secret method I developed in the 1970's: I turn on my Bosstone, on full fuzz, and listen for the beat notes in the fuzz mix. Even the slightest mismatch will cause a "HETERODYNE" effect that cannot be ignored. I used the same technique to tune in S.S.B. transmissions on my CB radio, and on Ham radios, in the late 60's and early '70's. Beat notes that are amplified can easily be zeroed by careful tuning.

------------------
Bob "Wiz" Feinberg
1983 Rosewood Emmons D10 Push-Pull, with 8 pedals and 9 knee levers, Wallace TrueTone E9 and Lawrence L-910 C6 pickups and aluminum necks. Nashville 400 amp with Peavey Mod. Emmons pedalbar mounted, and Goodrich LDR floor volume pedals.
I use and endorse Jagwire Strings and accessories.

Keep Steelin' but don't get caught!
[This message was edited by Wiz Feinberg on 18 November 2004 at 12:29 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 18 Nov 2004 1:20 pm

Are some of you saying that your guitar will be in tune better ,by tuning by ear,and that using a tuner the pitch will not be as close in tune . How far off? Could anyone tell? As much as cabnet drop? A tuner that reads 440 and you retune in by ear and than check it with a tuner and it reads 441, who is right the tuner or you.Even with super hearing I still think a good tuner will give you a run for your money. How many of you ride down a road on your horse,and call out to a driver of a car and say GET HORSE!- Big and Rich say, save the horse Joe

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Nov 2004 8:10 pm

Most musicians can't hear any difference finer than 2 or 3 cents. You have to be at least ten cents out of tune before the audience will start to notice. More if they've been drinking.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Nov 2004 8:44 pm

Joe. Here's the deal.

I happen to be one of the people that was blessed by 23 years out of my 25 years of steady paid band playing the ignogant belief that tuning with a tuner to all notes and all changes was the proper way, like guitars, basses, keyboards, vibes, etc., to discover that pedal steel players in a good amount don't believe any notes but the tonic should be dead on, in tune with a tuning fork, or tuner. As far out as 15 cents is what you have to be to be "in tune".

It's like doing the "fuzz tone thing" on a guitar and trying to get the "beats out" of the thirds that produce an, I don't know, .3 cy/sec beat. It'd only take a guitar player about a half hour to realise that you can't do it with fixed frets and only six strings.

With Pedal Steel, and an average of 16 changes, and 10 strings, there's an appearant method to make them all cogent with the thirds ( and sixths, and god knows about thirteenths) tuned down 15 cents, and a way of playing the same. If nothing else, wiggling the bar a lot, or immediately moving the bar up or down on strings played on multi note runs.

I gotta admit, Joe. They've got me believing that they can actually get all this done with special charts, and automatic bar repositioning.

I think it'd take me another 25 years to go through all the methods I've seen. I've actually yet to see a method or chart that did anything but put too many notes out of tune for my liking. They will end up getting you too worn out to point out all the places where this doesn't work. Nor will they tell you which changes and pedal combinations you can't use anymore.

I just tune everything so that it's in tune with a tuning fork or tuner, and try my best to play so it sounds that way. It's not that easy, but it's less embarassing than not being able to furnish a C# on demand and know that it's "in tune". Or a G# for that matter...

You want my take on it? Really?

It's ridiculous.

There's 62,052 reasons to be out of tune. At least the ones I've heard so far.

If I was just starting out, I'd throw up my hands and give up.

If you are, and you do anything but throw it all in the circular file, tune straight up to a good tuner, or to a set of 100 year old tuning forks, and try to find a way of playing in tune with half your strings and changes set 10-15 cents high or low, I'd advise to to not even try.

Just tune straight up, get use to hearing a wobbling third like electronic keyboard players, vibists, harp players good guitar players, and the like.

Simplicity isn't Easy.

Just my take and reply to you Joe.

Others may do what they like. Especially the Professionals.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 19 November 2004 at 06:33 AM.]

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 19 Nov 2004 1:14 pm

Let's see, I'm sitting in the studio getting ready to record a tune, and the piano player plays a great sounding, in tune E chord, the guitar player plays a great sounding, in tune E chord. Now I play my ET, tuned straight up on the tuner E chord that sounds all out of tune, and this is supposed to work better with them??? Not in my world.

I have tuned by ear my whole life, after tuning my root E to 441 or 442, on the stage and in the studio. It works great for me. I spend 60+ hours a week in recording studios, and am accutely aware of tuning, and would never tune my guitar straight up. Tried it, does not work for me. I have produced sessions using players such as Paul, Dan, Jimmie, Sonny (who does not even use a tuner)and others and watch them all tune by ear and all sound perfectly in tune with the track.

I will be the first one to say, hey, if ET works for you, fantastic--go for it. Just does not work in my world...

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 19 Nov 2004 1:48 pm

Wynn Stewart taught me some fundamentals in professionalism when I was a young guitar player with musical talent and not much professional experience.
This topic brings one lesson to mind. He told me to get that sucker in tune before the show started and he did not want to hear anyone tuning during his performance. He would rather hear a guitar slightly out of tune than to hear someone tuning during the show.
When electronic tuners became available, I was able to tune during the performance without interupting the show. I have since relied strongly on tuners.
Bud Carter suggested that you rub the strings with your hands for about a minute before tuning. This brings the strings up to body temperature and eliminates the need to retune after you have played the first few songs.
I think my "ear" is pretty good, but I find the electronic tuner can make you more professional..............JD