What Equipment an Actual New Player is Considering.

[Ed Boyd]

Howdy,

I’m a future new player. I’m an older guy. (50) I’m a piano player by trade and have also played guitar in a lot of bands. I play a little bit of C6 lap steel. I have wanted to learn pedal steel for a long time. I have no aspirations of playing steel live. I’ve been in bands for 35 years and am sort of tired of it.

My initial advice I took to heart came from Paul Franklin via fellow keyboardist Steve Nathan. The advice was “Buy something you will be able to sell in 6 months.” So I thought about getting a used pro level double neck guitar. I had my sights on a MSA Classic D10. ($2200-$2300 after shipping). It was more money than I wanted to spend but I thought could possibly recoup most the cost if learning pedals didn’t pan out.

I found a relatively local shop that specializes in pedal steels. The owner recommends a student model GFI. The price is about half. The GFI seems like a good deal and the store also gives lesson. I ran the two steel options by a friend who I always looked up to musically. He recommended the GFI also.

I need some other accessories. I have a Planet Waves Strobe-O-Tuner but thought I would get a Peterson that is setup for Jeff Newman’s tuning system. I thought I could get by with playing through my old Blackface Twin and Ernie Ball volume pedal at first. I already have picks, cables, delays, etc….

I don’t know if a GFI student model qualifies as something I can sell in 6 months or not. But it looks easier to carry and I will be supporting a local business that supports the art.

In reality, I don’t know what something I can sell in 6 months even is. I’m not even a new player yet. I’m a potential new player. LOL.

That is what I have been thinking. I don't know how sound the thinking is. I don't know.... that MSA was sure pretty, even though I wouldn't even know how to put it together.

Thanks.

[Lane Gray]

Unless the GFI has 4 knees, it's NOT a guitar you can sell easily in 6 months.
I'd recommend that MSA.

[Ed Boyd]

Thanks!

The GFI is 3+4 standard Emmons setup.

[Lane Gray]

I'd still lean towards the MSA. Several people here have posted various reservations/drawbacks to the SM-10, while the only drawback to the MSA is the weight. And, should you keep it and develop the urge to tinker, the MSA, being an all-pull guitar, is pretty easy to futz with. The GFI is, IIRC, pull-release. You'll see me elsewhere preaching the excellence of pull-release tone. But rearranging pulls is like trying to sync four carburetors. Sure, the machinery is simple but it's easy to get almost right and still be all wrong.

[Tony Prior]

If the GFI 3+4 is a student model and can be purchased for a grand or less, you should be ok on a re-sale , or at least you will be close on getting your cash back. In the Pedal Steel guitar community there is NOT a sucker born every minute ! Just a heads-up!


If you are thinking a D10 as a better overall investment just make sure it is at least an 8+4 with 4 levers on the E9th and two knees working the C6th tuning, which would be the two right knee levers. A newer modern ALL PULL would be most appropriate. The best re-sales are the ones where the next buyer doesn't need parts and doesn't need to tinker. And of course, are priced accordingly.

Older MSA's as Lane suggests are indeed quality instruments .

[Douglas Krause]

I agree with Lane. An all pull guitar is easier to change the set up on if you wish, and most of us get to tinkering with things before long. I play Day setup so every guitar I've owned I've had to change right away. The pro guitar will also hold it's value better IMO.

I'd like to respond to your tuner comment. It is good to read about everyone's ideas on tempering the tuning of the steel. It has to be done to some degree just as with a piano. Before relying on a special tuner to do it, I suggest you train your ear to what sounds right to you. I tune straight up open, get close with pedals and knee levers, and tweak it by ear. I still have to compensate with the left hand throughout the gig because no tuning issue is ever the guitar player, is it? I know many would not agree and live by compensated tuning charts. The tech who tunes my Steinway gets a reference note from the tuner or a tuning fork and then relies on his ear to make it sound glorious. I think it's interesting that I have no tuning anxiety when playing piano because there's nothing I can do about it, so psychologically I relax and just play. On steel guitar, I think all tuning issues must begin with me, right?

[Ed Boyd]

Thanks for all the information. I didn't know anything about the different pull mechanisms.

Being a piano player I know you can not machine tune a piano to perfect A=440 pitch. The piano will sound awful. I found it interesting when I heard you had to stretch tune a steel also. But they are all string intruments it makes sense.

[Lane Gray]

I'd overlooked the tuning issue.
I would NOT recommend a new player start with a programmed tuner.
A basic tuner with a needle and the EMMONS chart (the Newman chart with its silly Hertz numbers don't work with most tuners) found here www.buddyemmons.com/ttchart.htm will be very close to what most players use.
I recommend a simplified variant. All notes straight up, except: D#, E# (Yes, E#. The third of a C# chord is E#), G# and C# (and A# if you lower your Bs later on) get flatted 4 cents. If you flat the thirds enough to sound sweet by yourself, you'll be clashing with the keyboard and guitar player.

[Calvin Walley]

Lane

Jeff has tuning charts in both hertz and cents
for the 1st few years i used his cents chart but later found that i liked the hertz chart better

[Pat Chong]

Mr Boyd,
There is good advice from all. Now who to listen to????
With all these questions and answers involved with your purchase(s), I believe you yourself can answer it when you concider:

WHY are you wanting to play, and maybe
HOW might you achieve it, and
WHAT are your goals to play a steel.

Honestly answering your own questions gives you an idea of how much one would spend (student model vs pro model) and how much one would spend on other equipment.

Just my 1/50th of a dollar worth......
......................Pat

[Calvin Walley]

Pat Chong said

WHY are you wanting to play, and maybe
HOW might you achieve it, and
WHAT are your goals to play a steel.

you got it !!!
the 1st three things any wantbe needs to answer before spending a single dime

[chris ivey]

i'd lean towards trying to get the msa, but for under 2 grand. maybe 16-$1800. there are alot out there.

[Lane Gray]

Lane

Jeff has tuning charts in both hertz and cents
for the 1st few years i used his cents chart but later found that i liked the hertz chart better

Aren't the values essentially the same?
And an E tuned to 440 IS AN A. If it's at 440, it's an A

[chris ivey]

long ago most of us would listen to the strings, and tune it by ear so it sounds good.
that's a good way to start.

[Tim Russell]

long ago most of us would listen to the strings, and tune it by ear so it sounds good.
that's a good way to start.

That's how I still tune. I get the high E in tune, then do the rest by ear. If the OP is a 35 yr. veteran piano player I'm certain he will not have any trouble tuning it this way as well. (after he learns how the tuning sounds, that is)

As far as the steel purchase goes - to me, it's a toss up between both the models listed. I would personally lean towards the MSA myself, simply because I want the versatility of an all-pull/double neck guitar.

[Calvin Walley]

Lane
the answer is yes , Jeffs cent chart and hertz chart
gave you the same tuning ,
i just found that I could be a tad more precise using the hertz chart and a Boss TU-12 tuner

[John Botofte]

Ed, I also started with PSG in mid-life. I'm very happy with my Peterson HD strobe tuner, so easy, and good enough for my ears. Don't get their phone app though. Also happy with my GFI SM, great quality and I can play all the stuff I want to play. But one needs a great volume pedal. My ernie ball sucked the tone while the hilton made it sing. Also get the best cables (George L). That's my experience from 3 years of playing.
John

[Dustin Rigsby]

long ago most of us would listen to the strings, and tune it by ear so it sounds good.
that's a good way to start.

I still do a lot of that. I also lean towards an MSA, 2,200 is an aweful lot of money for an MSA from the classic era. 1,800 is a more fair price.

[Paul Wade]

long ago most of us would listen to the strings, and tune it by ear so it sounds good.
that's a good way to start.

I still do a lot of that. I also lean towards an MSA, 2,200 is an aweful lot of money for an MSA from the classic era. 1,800 is a more fair price.

yes $2200.00 is to much for a m.s.a d-10. i bought my first BMI D-10 and paid $1200.00 for it.you might want to deal with this music store and try to lower the price on the m.s.a d-10
http://www.hummingbirdmusicstudio.com/steels

p.w

[Dustin Rigsby]

Hummingbird Music is good people ! Rick will do right by you for sure. Tell him I said hi if you call

[Ed Boyd]

Thanks everyone.

Hummingbird has the same MSA guitar for $150 less. I really would like a C6 neck eventually. My non pedal guitars are C6 tunings but a lot less strings. Am chord stacked on a C maj chord. It is easy for me to understand as an old piano player.

My biggest worry is probably pretty stupid. But I worry about buying something online and it arriving and I don't know how to put the guitar together properly. I'll ask my local luthier if he knows anything about pedal steels.

PS I just found the MSA owners manual online and downloaded it. I feel better.

[Rich Upright]

FWIW; my MSA D-10 Classic Supersustain was the best sounding guitar I have ever heard or owned,period. Their tone cannot be beat, even by a PP.
I could kick myself every day for selling it. Only drawback was the weight.

[Lane Gray]

I don't get the lack of love for MSA tone. I've been working on my extended E9th S-12 (my Zum is in the shop and I want to make sure I can play it if the Zum isn't ready for Saturday's gig), and the tone is dead amazing.

[Ed Boyd]

I e-mailed Rick. He said thanks for referring me to him. I say thanks also.

Rick also say Hi to Dustin.

Rick has the guitar I really want but I have one question.

I hope this OK, but here is an excerpt from his e-mail

. It is 8 pedals and 4 knee levers. 1 of the 4 knees is vertical. It is currently set up "Sho~bud" style. Emmons like pedals but the "D" lever or the lever that lowers the E's is on the Right leg going Left.

I had hoped for a 'Standard' Emmons setup. Mostly in hopes the guitar would match up with instructional material. Rick will set it up however I want for an extra $300. I think once I figure out the 10 string grips I can probably adapt to whatever setup I have. I just don't want to drive my teacher crazy.

Anyone have any thoughts on changing the setup? It is all new to me so I have no habits yet.

Thanks

[Lane Gray]

Placement of the knees is far from standard.
I like having the E changes on the same leg because the E lowers work with both the 6th string drop (not totally standard, but VERY common) and 2nd string drop. But that's personal preference. No reservations about the guitar.