Switching between guitars with different knee lever setups..

[Ben Waligoske]

A question for some more seasoned members than myself...

I've had some experience playing guitars with different Knee Lever setups... most significantly, guitars that have the the E lowers and 2nd string lowers or 1st string raises on various levers, etc., Currently, I own a guitar (ShoBud) with the E lowers on RKL, although I previously owned a guitar with the E lowers on LKR...

Anyways, I'm just wondering if there's many of you out there who own/regularly gig on guitars that have various knee lever setups, or if the preference trends towards keeping ones copedent the same on all your guitars (sitting in on others' guitars notwithstanding here)... I couldn't come up with search terms to find a previous thread on the topic so here I am..

Obviously this is a personal thing and probably some guys are more comfortable switching it up than others, but I'm wondering anyways... I'm thinking of picking up a 2nd, (lightweight) steel, and ruminating on how much I should care about getting something like a Stage One (LKR E Lowers, fixed) and having to regularly switch my physical movements for the same changes from guitar to guitar... I know I could change up my ShoBud, but I tend to prefer the E lowers on RKL, which is what makes the topic more relevant...

My gut tells me that if you play both enough, it doesn't really matter... but anyone out there with some thoughts to confirm or dissuade?

Cheers,
-b

[Jerry Overstreet]

If you can do it comfortably, go for it. I know Johnny Cox can play the strings off any setup, but most of us mortals prefer to keep things familiar so that we don't add to the weird sounds we're already producing.

[chris ivey]

i prefer keeping mine all the same and not playing anyone else's set-up.

[Calvin Walley]

i'll play ANY guitar ...as long as it has the standard Emmons setup ...lol

[Richard Sinkler]

I'm a Day player, and can easily play an Emmons setup, as long as the E raises and lowers are on the left knee.

[Ben Waligoske]

Interesting Richard - that's taking it a "step" further... zing!

Seriously though, I've never played a Day setup but I'd imagine that the concept still applies and we're talking about the same part of the brain getting used when switching either pedal or knee lever setups regularly. I suppose it's akin to switch hitting in baseball...

Thanks for the responses so far! Interesting topic...

[Mark van Allen]

A fine question, Ben. Many good players can switch off nearly effortlessly between setups, but it bears remembering that this is a skill set like any other, and can be developed by playing on guitars with different setups.

I went through a period where I dislocated my ankle and swapped from Emmons to Day setups to make it easier on myself, and for some time I had no difficulty playing either setup. For some reason I lost some of that mental flexibility, and lately find myself more and more ingrained in muscle memory conundrums… if I play for very long with one setup I start automatically "thinking" in that way… I want a certain note and my knee just goes right… so I've sought out what seems to me the best ergonomic/theoretical balance in my setup and I'm sticking with that.

Got enough to fight with technically these days.

[Lane Gray]

If I'm at a D-10, I'd want it the same as other D-10.
Likewise for the S-12, or the SD-12.
But when guitars are so obviously different to sit behind, I haven't had a confusion issue.

[Bob Blair]

I can get by with different knee lever setups, but it makes sense to stick with one that is familiar. A few years ago I switched from lowering the E's on RKL to the more common LKR. I have a guitar on the coast that is still set up the old way and I use it. Awhile ago I sat down to jam at the Phoenix show on a guitar lowering on RKR and it was not a big problem. But it requires some concentrated thought to remember it - to me it is kind of an interesting mental exercise. Sometimes when I get tired I still catch myself trying to lower on RKL, which has not been my standard setup for some time. Every few years I'll sit down at a guitar with the Day pedal configuration, and it takes a few minutes before I can play anything at all.

[chris ivey]

why not set up your steels for optimum performance?
i would think this would be the same on each steel unless you can't decide what works best.

[Bob Blair]

As Chris says, in an ideal world it makes little or no sense to have a guitar in what is not my standard setup. But I am so lousy at working on them that I don't want to change the other guitar over myself and risk not having a working guitar when I need it. Eventually the west coast axe will come back to Alberta where forumite Gavin Dunn will do his usual great work on it. Serendipitously, the rkl-lower setup was perfect for Chris Bauer when he used the guitar last summer!

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I have max respect for people who can play multiple setups. This includes people who can go from a D-10 to a U-12. I'm not one of them. I tried to maintain flexibility but discovered that the smart move for me is to configure any/all guitars of mine to my personal specs and accept that that's the way it's got to be. And to never be drunk enough to think that I can sit at someone else's different rig. No. It won't be ok.

[Larry Bressington]

I'm a stiff, so any changes i make i think about for a long time, i have to go through and do all 3 guitars after i settle in on a fixed idea with my experimental home guitar...I don't like multi-unorganized thinking and confusion like having mixed co-ped's.

[Tommy Auldridge]

I play the Day set-up. When I buy a used steel I always have to change everything anyway, so I make them all the same. I have had occasions where I would play my brother Mike's steel at his house for a couple of hours. After getting used to his Emmons set-up, I would come home and spend a half hour getting used to my own set-up again. It seems to me that every little move becomes second nature, and you don't even think about what you're doing. Suppose you had to drive a car that had the steering exactly backwards. When you want to turn left, you have to turn the steering wheel to the right. You could get used to that in a few minutes, but then when you go back and drive a normal steering car, you better think for a second before making a sudden swerve in traffic. Tommy.......

[john buffington]

For me only -
I make it a point, whenever I trade guitars I play them the way they are already set up. It keeps me from getting in a "rut" and causes me to have to think and not take for granted a one way only mind set. Same as when I go from a D-10 to a U-12. There again this is for me only and I use it as a personal challenge and mental exercise.

[Ben Waligoske]

Great responses all around everyone, and no doubt an interesting topic. For my personal situation, I decided to play it somewhat safe and just today jumped on Doug Earnest's waitlist for a Zum Encore, so I won't have to worry about switching back and forth from a Stage One copedent (my other potential/cheaper option) to my ShoBud's setup - I'll just have the Encore shipped from Doug the same as my Bud and roll that way for awhile. But, at least I'll have the option to switch if the notion ever strikes me...

Still, an interesting topic. To further the conversation a bit with a different perspective, when I switch from doing 6-string work on say, a Strat vs. a Les Paul, I tend to find myself altering my approach and note selection a bit (not drastically, but some) to play to the strengths of a particular guitar.

I wonder if anyone can chime in giving credence to a similar thing on pedal steel? Like hypothetically, someone who plays their Zum one way and their Emmons another way, or etc., based on the guitars' strengths...

Anyways, fun stuff...

[Bob Watson]

My first psg was a Sho Bud Professional which lowered the E's on RKL. I lived in Nashville for 11 years and when I moved there my roommate had a P/P Emmons that lowered the E's on LKR. Sitting in was essential to finding gigs and it was a lot easier to just deal with whatever setup you were sittin' in on then dragging your rig in and I noticed that most players liked the fact that you would play they're rig, so they could go out and hear it. Lowering your E's on LKR was more popular so I learned how to deal with it by practicing on my roommate's Emmons. I would try to think in terms like "I'm lowering my E's" instead of thinking "I'm going to engage RKL. I wouldn't play a Day setup but I finally got to the point where I didn't care where the knee levers were. I have to admit that I would usually keep my playing limited to the 3 floor pedals and the knee lever lowering the E's, but there is a lot of music to be played using just those 3 pedals and 1 knee lever. I've been playin' a P/P Emmons that I had changed the knee lever lowering the E's from LKR (which most P/P's come with) to RKL. I've noticed that most guys who play older P/P's that just have 4 pedals and 4 knee levers seem to always keep the standard "Emmons" setup with lowering the E's on LKR and sometimes I think I should just go back to that setup and deal with it. I would love to hear what other P/P players have to say about it. Sorry for the long post, I hope some of it is informative for you.

[Tommy Auldridge]

I also got started on a Sho-Bud. I ordered it with Jeff Newman's copedant. It came with RKL lowering the E's. Then years later when I ordered a Push/Pull Emmons, I wanted everything the same. I still play that same set-up. I don't play anyone else's steel and no one else plays mine. If anyone ever asks to play mine, I tell them it's the Day set-up, and they say, oh never mind. I didn't want them to play mine anyway. Tommy......

[Henry Matthews]

I'm a Day player, and can easily play an Emmons setup, as long as the E raises and lowers are on the left knee.

Richard, I'm a Day player also but can easily play Emmons set up. If I play an Emmons guitar for 20 or 30 minutes and then set down at mine, then it blows my mind, can't play mine then. I can swap from Day to Emmons but not back to Day. Does same thing happen to you? I have to just get away from it for about 30 minutes then I'm fine. Just to get out of Emmons mode I guess,:D

[Chris Bauer]

I figure that I struggle enough to play my own set-up without making it worse trying to play someone else'.

I've known a few players who can sit down at anyone's steel and be comfortable after a short while. That wouldn't be me.

Every year or so, I seem to find myself sitting in on somebody else' guitar and assuring myself it will be fine. It never takes long to remind myself what a terrible idea it actually is - at least for me.

(And Bob Blair - I'm still grateful you had a guitar last summer that I could mostly find my way around on!)

Oh - and here's a pro tip. Even if you think you can play pretty much anyone's guitar, think twice - or maybe three times - before trying Mr. Ivey's set-up. The cool thing is that he can make it sound amazing. The rest of us mere mortals? Um, not so much...

[Paddy Long]

I prefer to have all my guitars setup identically - that way I can concentrate on my music, and not have to think about what is different about the guitar

[Tony Prior]

well the thing is for me, if I sit behind a Steel that is not the same or close to the configurations I play, then as I am searching for phrases or pulls while playing, it's entirely possible that by the time I find it it's too late.

Or worse, you play in the SAFE ZONE which could prevent you from playing all the neat stuff you have been practicing.

If we are doing anything other than thinking about the music and execution , then the music will suffer.

Yes true, some are better at it than others no doubt and sure, sitting behind a Steel for a 30 minute set may indeed make a player more comfortable , but what about the 1st song ?

[Ben Waligoske]

Definitely hear all of that... and I'll admit that the FIRST time I sat at a steel with backwards knee levers, it was pretty odd...

I sort of expected the majority to fall where it has so far, no surprises really, but fun discourse.