D6th almost Universal - for your consideration.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 13 Feb 2016 9:20 am

A 10-string copedent that raises C6th a step and lowers E9th a step, with most of the essential changes. The idea is that you play your E9th licks on the top strings with the left pedals and knees. It's for C6th players who need to sound more country sometimes.

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 13 Feb 2016 11:42 am

Requires triple raise, and an additional pedal. would it be practical to use LKV and RKR to eliminate P5?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 13 Feb 2016 12:50 pm

If his p5 is the equivalent of the C6 pedal 7, I have that change on my RKR. Lane Gray has the C6 pedal 5 on a lever. I also have the C6 p8 on a knee lever, and would never put it back on a pedal.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 13 Feb 2016 12:58 pm

On the Kline I had, and the ZB before that, I raised the top C to D, and the top A to B on different knees. I did also keep the same changes on the pedal, because you activate the knees quick enough, and smooth enough as you can the p7. On my Carter I don't have the C6 pedal 7 on the floor, just on the knee lever.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 13 Feb 2016 7:19 pm

Rich Peterson wrote:Requires triple raise, and an additional pedal. would it be practical to use LKV and RKR to eliminate P5?

Technically, yes, but if you're used to P7 on the C6th, you wouldn't want it split on two levers. Also, the C6th P6+p7 on strings 2 and 3 gives the same bounce effect as the B+C on E9th. You can't really get that with knee levers.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 13 Feb 2016 9:20 pm

I like it a lot. Might change some lever duties... the open string tuning and general concept is great. I can really see playing that coped.

On my 5x5 E9/B6 uni...I split P7 into LV and LKL so I could hit them at the same time simply by slamming those two levers at a 45 deg angle. It works but not as fun or easy as bouncing on P7.

My interest in the 6th tuning has taken hold and I would like a Uni that I dont need to hold in a knee lever to make it work yet remaining fluid... thus have also been exploring E9E6 approaches. Have an Emmons PP waiting for the right coped

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 14 Feb 2016 8:13 am

Tom, what about the Bb6?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 14 Feb 2016 8:46 am

The difference here, Lane, is that you don't have to "shift" to switch from one tuning to the other. Both are based on the same root tone. On Bb6, you raise the D strings to Eb when you want to sound like an E9th. On the more conventional E9/B6 Universal, you lower the E's to D# when you want to sound like a C6th. Plus, both of them require 12 strings.

On this "almost universal", both modes work from the same root tone, D, which is midway between C and E. This removes a lot of redundancy - notice that 3 of the knee levers are common to both tunings. It simplifies tempering, too.

I've been using this concept on my S-8 for the past 6 years, playing folk rock, Americana and western swing. It's not fancy enough on the E9th side for Paul Franklin's killer Nashville licks, but it does sound authentic for traditional country songs.

Using D as the root takes a bit of the high twang out of country, but it also brings the steel up in the mix on western swing tunes. The icing on the cake is the open G tuning with P2, for dobro-like hammers and pull-offs on the open strings in bluegrass tunes.

One last thing. I discovered that P5+P6 gives me the Hawaiian B11th tuning, for "Sand".

Downside: an S-10 with 6 pedals is a custom order. There aren't too many in existence.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 14 Feb 2016 11:45 am

Lane...b0b nailed it...

b0b ... I think you got this one near perfect. It has everything I love about standard C6 pedal order on my D10.. and the E9 part of my E9 B6 including C on knee and P4 on knee...yet without the cumbersome split P7....its as perfect as I can imagine based on my own experiences with coped design..

I think you are 1 or 2 steps away from the grail. Gotta find a way to get D to D- on a knee. ...maybe...perhaps just an adjustment on using RKR to get the E9 E lower...

Now I need to strip my S12U PP into a Ext E9... keep the extra parts...and refit into an S10 PP. Time to schedule a vacation to San Diego to see Jim...lol

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 14 Feb 2016 3:08 pm

Tom, I thought I would need the middle D to C# lower on RKL, but in practice I found that the using a bar slant for that one change isn't all that difficult.

The E9th 2nd string changes are on RKR, albeit in reverse like the guys who tune their 2nd string to C# and raise it on a knee.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 14 Feb 2016 3:36 pm

Bar slant? I play pedal steel so I don't have to do those. .!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 14 Feb 2016 4:02 pm

LOL! Another thought is to install a pull rod on RKL for that change* and just back out the tuning nut for jazz/swing gigs. I'd probably do that now if I had the parts.

It might be okay to put it on LKV. It doesn't clash with the high D to E.

*middle D to C#

Jerry Malvern · Post by **Jerry Malvern** » 15 Feb 2016 8:46 pm

b0b, any thought on instructional material or tablature? Seems you went this far...

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 15 Feb 2016 10:01 pm

I don't write courses, Jerry. And even if I did, there wouldn't be much of a market for one in a non-standard tuning. Any C6th course would work for this, as long as you understand that it's a step higher. The pedals are the same.

The E9th-ish side is convoluted from standard E9th because the string order is different. I think any C6th player who fooled around with it would get the hang of it pretty quickly.

I'm not really advocating it for beginners - just presenting it as an idea for people who already understand the D-10, play a lot of C6th and want to slim down to an S-10. I still play a D-10 at home, but I don't like carrying it around for 1-nighters. Gettin' old, y'know?

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 26 Sep 2018 9:59 pm

I must be getting old... Memory is not what it was.

I was asking about new coped ideas a few weeks ago for my Emmons PP.. Started thinking about a bunch of E6E9 spreadsheets I developed a decade ago following some ideas of the late great Al Marcus and then magically recalled that b0b was developing something that checked alot of boxes for me.

So dredged this necro thread to pick b0b's brain a bit.

How is this coped working for you, b0b.. Any changes or further thoughts?

If you had a 12 string guitar, what would you do with the 2 extra strings based on this coped?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 26 Sep 2018 10:18 pm

It's fooking brilliant.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 27 Sep 2018 7:46 am

Tom Gorr wrote:How is this coped working for you, b0b.. Any changes or further thoughts?

If you had a 12 string guitar, what would you do with the 2 extra strings based on this coped?

It's working very well. Most of my gigs are folk-rock, western swing and/or classic country. Last night I had a rehearsal with a country group that leans heavily towards bluegrass. My foot didn't leave the A+B position for 3 hours! It all sounded genre-correct in spite of the fact that it's a 6th tuning. The wasn't a 6th or 9th chord to be heard.

People who play 12-string C6th often add a B as their 2nd string to get more chromatic runs. I am getting those notes out of my 4th string with the half stop on RKR, but I see how inserting that extra string would be convenient. So that's 11 strings. I can't think of any other string I'd want to add. I tried the "middle 9th" idea (middle D on C6th) for a few years but it interfered with traditional C6th techniques.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 27 Sep 2018 7:51 am

By the way, the copedent chart at the top of this topic is old. Here's the current chart from my web site:

manny escobar · Post by **manny escobar** » 28 Sep 2018 6:00 am

I do not know that much about music theory but I like the spacing of B0b`s F#,D and B. They are all FOUR strings apart except for the low D. The E9 tuning is: F# SIX string space, the G# THREE strings, the E FOUR strings and the B FIVE strings. It`s not so easy for full sound style playing. Also at age 77 I am not that strong and I favor the evolution of double neck steels to single.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 28 Sep 2018 8:12 am

manny escobar wrote:I do not know that much about music theory but I like the spacing of B0b`s F#,D and B. They are all FOUR strings apart except for the low D.

That spacing is the same as the E, C and A strings on C6th. It's great for playing octave melodies.

Also at age 77 I am not that strong and I favor the evolution of double neck steels to single.

Even without the issue of a D-10's weight, it always seemed odd to me that a pedal steel would need two 10-string necks to produce the range of music that a standard guitar produces with a single 6 string neck. Guitarists can use a single tuning to play country, rock, jazz and even classical music. Our D-10 is a tradition - I get that - but I don't believe that it's a requirement going forward.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 28 Sep 2018 6:01 pm

Thanks b0b for your feedback.

I am sure I will be moving that direction but I may need to unload my awesome sounding 12 string PP Uni and find a 6x6 S10 PP that sounds its equal.

Its going to be a challenge unless I rob this Uni and change it to an Ext E9.

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 28 Sep 2018 6:35 pm

Even without the issue of a D-10's weight, it always seemed odd to me that a pedal steel would need two 10-string necks to produce the range of music that a standard guitar produces with a single 6 string neck.

When I bought my MSA U12 new in 1979, my understanding was that the mechanism needed for it had only recently been developed or used - meaning triple raise/triple lower.
I don't know if that's correct, but for decades there has simply been no good reason for a D10 over a U12. Certainly a D10 looks impressive, but weight aside, 'one big tuning' is (to me at least) the only way to go. Certainly not knocking D10 players, especially the pioneers like Buddy Emmons, Curly Chalker or Doug Jernigan; I'm thinking more of us weekend warrior types who have long had a choice.
(Please no flame throwing, I mean nothing personal by saying this.)

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 28 Sep 2018 7:21 pm

It would be a real challenge to put my hybrid D6th copedent on an Emmons push-pull.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 28 Sep 2018 9:04 pm

Thanks for the heads up... ;( grrr

I may have expected if a s12 can handle a 5x7 that a s10 could handle a 6x6.. But.. I really don't have the PP expertise to know better either way.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 29 Sep 2018 8:15 am

Tom,

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it would be a challenge on a push-pull. The tunable splits won't work, of course, but that's no big deal. The main problems are the triple raises and the half-stop lever RKR.

LKV2 is just there for completion of the standard 4-lever C6th. Very handy in jazz, but I played for years without it. You really don't need it. Leaving it out would simplify the 4th string quite a bit.

I say go for it!