Problem with my Sho~Bud 6139 1st string raise

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 30 Oct 2015 4:40 pm

I have a Sho~Bud 6139 and my RKL raises string 1 a whole tone, string 2 a half tone and lowers the 6th string a whole tone.

All was working perfectly until I changed the strings today (exactly the same set that was on it before and I changed them one string at a time.

Now my 1st string will only raise by about a half tone (the other 2 changes on that lever are OK). I already tried loosening the nylon nuts and re-tuning the strings.

The 6129 changer is double raise, single lower.

The weird thing is that, once I tighten the tuning nut on the first string beyond a certain point, as I engage the lever I can see the lower kicking in on the first string - even though there is nothing connected to it. If I don't tighten it quite that far, the string raises but not far enough, but the lower doesn't engage.

Has anyone seen this before and any suggestions?

Thanks.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 30 Oct 2015 5:12 pm

1) are you sure you don't have a ball end or other foreign matter in there?
2) when did the pivot rivets (all three per string) get a drop of oil? They only need a drop a year.
3) tighten the lower return spring a bit.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 30 Oct 2015 6:48 pm

Lane Gray wrote:1) are you sure you don't have a ball end or other foreign matter in there?
2) when did the pivot rivets (all three per string) get a drop of oil? They only need a drop a year.
3) tighten the lower return spring a bit.

1 - pretty sure there's not. I didn't break a string prior to changing them and I don't have any ball ends unaccounted for.
2 - I gave it a good oil not long ago when my E raise wasn't returning to pitch (that cured it BTW)
3 - Is this something that would suddenly become a problem? It was fine before the string change and the problem I have is that the first string won't go all the way to G#.

I feel that the key to the problem is that once I tighten the nut beyond a certain point to try to get to the G#, the empty "lower" changer engages as I'm trying to raise the string but can't work out how this is happening.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 30 Oct 2015 7:03 pm

All-pull guitars feature a running battle between string tension and spring tension with friction running interference. If the lowering bar comes off the stop bar during a raise-only operation, the return spring isn't holding it to the stop bar. This might be the fault of the spring or it might be friction.
No, it shouldn't just appear.
It's possible that you accidentally disturbed the geometry of the fingers while you had the string off. Try loosening the string, working the lever and then bring it back to pitch.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 30 Oct 2015 9:24 pm

Sounds to me like you got wrong gage sting on the to, hold be a 15 gage. Chech you Gage's.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 31 Oct 2015 3:49 am

Henry Matthews wrote:Sounds to me like you got wrong gage sting on the to, hold be a 15 gage. Chech you Gage's.

Yes checked that - actually my first is a 12.

I think there is a mechanical problem in the changer that is beyond my abilities to fix. When I press the changer with the tip of a pair of pliers, just above the nylon nut, the string still doesn't raise more than a semitone, whereas the other strings that are working fine raise much further when I press on them.

I'll make an appointment with the chap who helps me with my pedal steel problems. Unfortunately, he's a couple of hours away though

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 31 Oct 2015 4:14 am

Don't you have adjustable return springs? Most Buds do.

Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 31 Oct 2015 4:33 am

Use a .013 string

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 31 Oct 2015 4:35 am

Lane Gray wrote:Don't you have adjustable return springs? Most Buds do.

Not adjustable, as far as I can see, I'd have to cut them shorter or put in a longer/stronger/weaker spring, I think.

That's something I definitely wouldn't mess with without a responsible grown-up.

I'm definitely a newbie to the pedal world though and still find it a bit scary looking under the guitar.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 31 Oct 2015 4:42 am

Bob Knight wrote:Use a .013 string

But if the string is the problem, how was it working before with a 12?

Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 31 Oct 2015 5:14 am

All strings are not created equal??

Ronnie Boettcher · Post by **Ronnie Boettcher** » 31 Oct 2015 7:17 am

This is far fetched, but did you check that the string is hooked onto the fingers correctly. I have those fingers on my bud, and have to make sure the ball is seated in the fingers.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 31 Oct 2015 8:41 am

Assuming you're positive the string gauge is right and there's no loose ball-end hanging up in the changer, you might check to see if the tuning nut is too tight. That will cause resting tension on the changer and shorten up the amount of travel available for the changer finger to accommodate the raise.

The easy way to check is by tuning the 1st string to pitch and then loosening the nylon tuner while plucking the string. If the open string pitch lowers than excessive pre-load tension is the problem.

The remedy is to loosen the nut to about halfway back on it's threads and reset the pull rod at the bell crank until the open note is stable (no longer lowering). Tighten the rod on the bell rank but leave about 1/4" slack. You should now have enough room for the pull bar of changer finger to make the change. If the problem still remains, try tightening up the return string which shouldn't stiffen the knee lever on a string w/o lowers.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 2 Nov 2015 8:35 am

OK - I can see what the problem is but have no idea how to fix it.

As you can see from the attached picture, the changer on the 1st string is already in the engaged position even when the lever is not engaged.

I can't see anything obstructing it or stuck in there. It can't be seized up as it was working perfectly before the string change.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Nov 2015 8:38 am

Probably overtuned. Does turning the nylon nut have an effect on the F#? If so, back it all the way off

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 2 Nov 2015 8:43 am

Lane Gray wrote:Probably overtuned. Does turning the nylon nut have an effect on the F#? If so, back it all the way off

Yes, that's the first thing I thought of - the nut is backed all the way off

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Nov 2015 8:47 am

Can you push it back to the stop bar manually? I'm back to thinking that something in the geometry changed by accident in the string change.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 2 Nov 2015 8:51 am

Lane Gray wrote:Can you push it back to the stop bar manually? I'm back to thinking that something in the geometry changed by accident in the string change.

It moves slightly further out (fraction of an inch) and springs back to where it is in the picture but something is stopping it moving back to the proper rest position.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 2 Nov 2015 8:58 am

You can see from the lines I've added, the lowers are as they should be but the raise finger is sticking out quite a bit.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Nov 2015 9:24 am

Notice the others all have the raise scissor snug against the lower scissor, and your first string has pulled away. Slack the string, remove the return spring to get it out of the way. SOMETHING is interfering.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 2 Nov 2015 10:37 am

Jeff,

Did you change brands of strings? Some brands have different tension than others. I know that Live Steel Strings have a lot shorter throw for the same gauges.... great strings, but you do have to do some fiddling with the setup when you change to or from them.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 2 Nov 2015 10:52 am

mike nolan wrote:Jeff,

Did you change brands of strings? Some brands have different tension than others. I know that Live Steel Strings have a lot shorter throw for the same gauges.... great strings, but you do have to do some fiddling with the setup when you change to or from them.

I used the same brand but surely, whatever brand I used, the changer shouldn't be sticking out like that with the nylon tuner backed off and the string slackened.

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 2 Nov 2015 10:58 am

Jeff, have you removed the raise helper spring as Lane suggested? They're not necessary and often cause these sorts of issues. Notice in your picture that the only finger that is out of place is also the only one with a helper spring.

Jeff Mead · Post by **Jeff Mead** » 2 Nov 2015 11:09 am

Ian Worley wrote:Jeff, have you removed the raise helper spring as Lane suggested? They're not necessary and often cause these sorts of issues. Notice in your picture that the only finger that is out of place is also the only one with a helper spring.

I'm pretty sure the helper string is attached to the 2nd (which is fine).

Also if the string was so strong as to pull it that far out with the nylon tuner backed off and the string slack, I would have had problems before, surely?

Ian Worley · Post by **Ian Worley** » 2 Nov 2015 12:26 pm

It looks like it's on string one to me, but the angle of the picture may be deceptive. In any case, whatever finger it's on is clearly pulled forward from it normal rest position.

It could be the guide slot in the raise arm is catching on the bezel. It looks like you have a 2/1 changer with the pot metal fingers which are slightly different than the picture below, but the slot and bezel arrangement are the same. Removing the string, rod and lower return spring as suggested will allow you to wiggle it back into place. If there is a foreign object in there (such as a string ball end that has been lurking from long forgotten string break) then just tap the changer axle over enough to free that finger and it will drop out the bottom.