Eric, let's look at the way symphonies and big bands handle the questions you raise. They have been dealing with this for centuries. In general, the JI flatted 3rd is only used for harmony, not for key roots. It moves with the chord, even different chords in the same key. This can be done because the flatted 3rds are played by ear on fretless stringed instruments or horns with variable pitch (except the oboe). The ET scale is always there for taking any ET root note. The open strings of violins are tuned straight up to fifths, for which JI and ET are essentially the same. Horns are built to play ET scales, the lip flats the thirds to the ear when needed. Therefore:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>Taking a flatted third, say E in the C scale as a starting point:
When playing a harmonized scale built on that E note, is the whole scale or Em7 chord five cents flat?. Is the flattened third of that chord flattened further?.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, the E root for the key of E would be the straight up ET E, not the flatted 3rd of the key of C. Yes, the 3rd of the E chord (or any other chord) would be flatted by ear.
<SMALL>Is the E note, when played as a passing note or part of another chord in the song or passage still five cents flat?.</SMALL>
Not necessarily, the note might be flatted only when it is the third of some chord, not necessarily in passing.
<SMALL>How about when a new I chord is started from the Five, or Four, is that E always flattened? How about the new third?</SMALL>
No, E is only flatted as the third of a C chord. If you take the IV or V to modulate to that key, the root will be ET, and the third of the new root chord will be flatted, but only when it is the third of the root chord. If you take any key, and start playing major chords right up the scale (I, II, III, IV, etc.), the third of each chord will be flatted, but only when it is the third of a chord. This is why if you triy to tune a piano or fixed pitch instrument JI, it can't really play JI for every chord, even in the key for which it is tuned JI. The steel guitar is unique in that it has perfectly movable chords. Once you tune your third flat, it will stay properly flat for any chord, no matter what note the bar sets as the root.
This is why most pro steelers tune their octave Es (or As with the pedals down) straight up, and tune the internal notes of the chord by ear. Now they can move that sweet JI chord anywhere on the neck. Yes, you have tuned your open string G# (the third of your open E chord) flat. But when you need a G# chord, you will go to the 4th fret, play the root by ear (if needed, straight up with the bass, lead guitar, piano, singer, whatever). Thus, the root can be straight up if needed, and the third can still be JI sweet. Where's the problem?
Ernie you said:
<SMALL>I guess if everyone else in the world has there notes tuned to 440, I guess that pretty well says it all for being 'in tune'.</SMALL>
But everyone does not play straight up 440 for every note. The orchestra will tune all of their A notes to 440. But they will not play all notes straight up after that. They will flat thirds by ear to harmonize in any major chord. In fact, if they play an F chord, the third of that chord is A, and it will be played flat, not straight up, in that chord, even though the whole orchestra tuned straight up A=440. As a passing note, the strings might use the straight up open A string. But as a sustained note, they would finger it and play it by ear JI with vibrato. Go to a symphony and see if the strings ever sustain a note without vibrato (i.e. just a plain open string).
<SMALL>Is the third flattened in VI or V7 chords?</SMALL>
Yes, the third is flatted in pretty much any major chord.
Someone mentioned the pedal harp. The harpist I know tunes everything (strings and pedals) straight up ET. But harps don't have as many octaves as pianos, so I don't know that they worry much about stretch tuning. Maybe the big harps in symphony orchestras do, I'll ask her about that.
Carl, in another thread on this, someone pointed out that when they check singers with a tuner, the singers are unconsciously singing to a stretch tuning. It is something about our perception of pitch, not just something unique to pianos, although this problem may be more accentuated with pianos.
Acoustic pianos and harps sound okay playing out of tune thirds partly because, their notes are not sustained. After they hit the note it is fading. Being out of tune while a note is fading is less noticeable than being out of tune on a sustained note. Strings and horns sustain, and they play JI. Steel guitars need JI for the same reason, and that's probably why most top pro steelers tune by ear more or less to JI, even when playing with pianos. Electronic keyboards and organs sustain and use ET. Church organs usually play alone and use some tremolo. They sound very warbly.
Everything is a compromise. For finding the right compromise, your ears will be more useful than a meter. We are not meters. We play for human ears - we should tune to human ears.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David Doggett on 24 May 2004 at 09:35 AM.]</p></FONT>
