What's it like to play a push-pull?

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 25 Jun 2004 9:55 pm

Well, I'll guarentee one thing for sure, If Doug Jones has a PP for sale, it's not because there's anything wrong with the steel.

I Know Doug very well and can vouche that he takes better care of his steel guitars than any woman I've ever seen him with. If he has a guitar for sale, you can bet it is in tip top shape and probably plays like butter.
Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 26 Jun 2004 12:16 am

Owning a push pull is kind of like owning a English or Italian sports car. Sure there is a feel and a sound you won't get from anything else. But you need to love working underneath the axe as much as playing it.

IMNSHO

I personally enjoy playing without worrying about the mechanical aspects of the instrument.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Jun 2004 2:15 am

I have played a few PP's including both of John Davis's, and I do like the tone.

I have played an old E9 very out of reglage and it was clearly not the pleasure IT might have been.
But that tone was still there.

The ones Tommy Cass set up for John and a few others I tried were smooth as silk,
and great to play...
when set up Emmons, and not Huntley/Day...

Someday you will get your mits on one,
and I bet you will enjoy it.
But only at that point will you decide I want one!!! Or nice but who cares.

I don't own one, but it is on my list.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 June 2004 at 03:18 AM.][This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 June 2004 at 03:19 AM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 26 Jun 2004 5:25 am

Dan nailed it.

I compare them to Bikes.
A Classic Harley compared to a modern BMW.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 26 Jun 2004 5:40 am

Whereas I do agree with the "sports car" analogy as stated by my friend Dan T., I would point out that a properly set-up PP requires very little undercarriage maintenance if 1) the instrument was set up correctly in the first place, 2) the copedent is not outrageously complex, and 3) brands of strings are not changed every time they're replaced.

But yes, the PP guitar is not for Everyman. Rather, it's for a player who is comfortable with his pedal setup and is not constantly experimenting with changes. I also have a Fessenden guitar that is the one I use for the occasional copedent adventure. If I like a change on that horn long enough, I'll take the effort and add it to the PP's.

A PP expert such as Mike Cass or Bobby Bowman... there are definitely others as well, but my personal experience is with these two... should be able to assemble a guitar with little if any undercarriage maintenance required, if the above steps are adhered to.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 26 Jun 2004 5:45 am

hey Herb,I was already wondering what happend to you,didn`t see you on here in a long time.Good to see you back my PP buddy.
DB

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 26 Jun 2004 6:50 am

What do you think of the Emperor's new clothes?

If you sound good on an all-pull guitar, then you'll probably sound good on a push/pull too. Do they have a "magic sound"? Some players think so.

However, I think that if they had any clear advantage, sound-wise, most everyone who played for a living would be using one. Such is not the case.

Most of the top players today do not prefer them.

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 26 Jun 2004 8:35 am

"I personally enjoy playing without worrying about the mechanical aspects of the instrument"

AMEN to that Dan!
I've owned one push pull. it was a 78 emmons SD-10, and I've said it before, it didn't have the sound that my SKH Emmons Legrand has. the pp broke a string about once a week if played very much where my ap has only broken 3 strings in the 4-5 months I've had it, and they were all string 10.

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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 26 Jun 2004 2:31 pm

Hey Terry , what in the world are you doing to that 10th string ? I have only broke one 10th string in all my 57 years of picking. Of coures I didn't have a tenth string to break for a long time either.
If all goes well the Bax man with deliver my Black p/p monday right fresh out of a Mike Cass makover. ( I know a makeover is what they do to women, but Mike does it to p/p's )So I will post up here Monday night and let you know if my Seventy one year old legs have the strength to push the pedals.
I agree with Donny ,I hear guys ranting and raving about " that tone " and all that
p/p sound to die for, but when I see the guys who do this for a living they are always playing one of the top all pull guitars.I am not ready to sell my LeGrande 111 yet either. Now when Duane and Jeff get my old ShoBud overhauled that might just do it. Of course I would need one of those BudEms forklifts to haul it around for me.

Old Bud

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 26 Jun 2004 3:31 pm

yeah,I see.it`s truth, 80% of all the cab drivers who drive for living drive crown vic so therefore I believe that Corvette sucks.my tip to all of you who can`t hear the tone diferents is do not buy a push pull.to try to explain the tone on push pull to you would be as hard as trying to explain a differents betwen color and black and white movie to Ray Charles.He just don`t see it some people do.So the fact that he can`t see it doesnt mean that colors don`t exsist same as if you don`t hear the differnts in tone that doesn`t meant that tone is not different.I can see the color blind people can`t and I can also hear the tone deaf people can`t.

DB

push pull suck,,,peace

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 26 Jun 2004 7:16 pm

Hey there Damir ..Lighten up a little.
I know the p/ps are very close to your heart.Well they are close to mine also. I have two of them and will never be without one to play.
I can definately hear the tone...there aint nothin like it.But that being said, I will keep my all pull for working out and play my p/p for special occasions.Do we have a dealer for your new guitar ? I might dispose of some rare instruments I have, and buy one.It's not possible to have too many steels is it ?

Old Bud

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 27 Jun 2004 8:34 am

Hi Willis,

I said before and I will say it again.Like you,I wouldn`t take a push pull on the road ,too complicated to work on and too heavy.But since I`m not on the road anymore I can have a guitar that I love to play and play it in my house or in the clubs in Nashville.I didn`t wont to sound too harsh as I maybe did and I appologize for that,I just wanted to say that it is the fact that some people hear some frequencies and some people don`t.As far as I know many pro players have a PP under their beds and they play something else on the gig.For diferent reasons I guess,some get guitars for free just to promote them and some just like to have a guitar that is light and with simple mechanics.My guitar of choice to take it on the road would probably be GFI.I had D-10 Ultra and was vey happy with a guitar and customer service.I see you have a PP or two under your bed also, so you know what`s all about.Promat is a very interesting guitar,to me ,it does sound better than an Emmons PP,for whatever reasons (wood, metal,etc)that I don`t understand but I can hear the tone in the guitar.Too bad I`m not playing "Joy Land" in Brandenton,FL anymore ,if I was there you would be more than welcome to sit in and try my guitar.There will be four Promat steels in US in a next few monts ,Gary Sill`s,Bobbe`s and two of mine so if you ever come to Nasville visit you will have a chanse to try`em out.My second Promat will be diferent color but everything else will stay the same.There may be some improvement in mechanics also.Even tho Promat looks like an Emmons,it is not.There were many changes made in material as well as mechanics.
DB

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 27 Jun 2004 8:41 am

btw, Steel Guitar Nashville is the place and Bobbe Seymour is THE man to talk about ordering your Promat.My job was only to introduce this great guitar (I always wanted one anyway but they were too expencive for my musician paycheck until now)to you guys and the rest is on Bobbe.

DB

btw. one has to be way more than $2000 curious to get his hands on this guitar[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 27 June 2004 at 10:21 AM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 27 Jun 2004 9:15 am

first live gig and guitar performed flawlessly

Promat push pull

keyheads and Kluson tuners ordered from England

Jerry Wallace "True Tone" pick ups sound so amazing on this instrument that "Promat" company decided to use them on all of Promat steels.Thanks Jerry.

black push pull ,does it get any better?

DB

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 27 Jun 2004 9:59 am

Hey, Bud

Of all the E9 strings I break, the 3rd is the most frequent, the 5th next, but the 10th comes in a close third! In my case, it's because of the acid content in my perspiration (the frames of my spectacles get corroded, too - remember that 'Alien' movie?) and my 10th string breaks at the changer. That .038" doesn't go with a 'snap' like the .011" does, so it doesn't hurt much....

Does anyone else get this problem? As I HATE changing strings, I'll often change just the unwound ones, and keep the lower strings on a little longer than I should; that 10th will always break at a show - never at home, when it doesn't matter.....

RR

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 27 Jun 2004 11:07 am

I don't understand where some people think that a push pull guitar is not suitable for a road gig,,,,or any other type of gig as far as that goes. I don't purposely abuse my guitar, but I certainly don't "baby" it either. I think they are one of the more rugged constructed guitars that has ever been built.
I've said it before and I'll say it again,,,there is nothing quiet like a good, well put together and adjusted push pull Emmons guitar. If your PP guitar does not play easy, stay in tune, give superb service with little maintenance, then you need to have it serviced by a tech who knows how to achieve this for you. In my opinion, all things considered, they are absolutely the best that can be had. I'm not knocking other guitars,,,they can be wonderful too. But, they can have a set of problems just as much if not more than a well put together and properly adjusted push pull. I know this because I work on just about any brand of guitar and I think that other reputable mechanics will say the same thing.
ANY guitar,,,all pull or push pull needs to be "set up" right and adjusted within the "acceptable envelope" of what a "given" mechinisum will allow you to have. Once you have that,,,then it's not the guitar to complain about or make excuses for,,,it's the player.
PUSH PULL guitars are rugged, dependable and trustworthy guitars under just about any circumstance.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 27 Jun 2004 12:52 pm

you are right Bobby,I should refrase my words and say "I wouldn`t feel comfortable taking a PP on the road" ,not because there is something wrong with a guitar itself but because of my ignorance about PP mechanics.

DB

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 27 Jun 2004 1:16 pm

Man!

Thanks for everyone's input. Of course, none of it did any good since I'm just as curious and just as ignorant of the sound as I was before posting. As much as I live/eat/sleep/breath/dream steel, the thousands of dollars are starting to fly by me a little quickly, so I'll have to wait and earn the next guitar a little more before even considering a purchase.

I have just today installed a Jerry Wallace pickup on my MCI all pull and damn does it sound nice. I have officially decided that no man will ever play "The Turq" besides me, and that I will be buried with it. So I'll have to become a two-guitar man if I ever want to play a p/p.

Burton Lee
MCI D-10 named "The Turq", Nashville 400 named "Nashville 400"

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 27 Jun 2004 1:38 pm

nothing wrong with MCI ,great guitars.

DB

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 27 Jun 2004 1:44 pm

Damir,
As a fellow owner of a black Emmons P-P, I must take issue with your displaying of this new guitar in front of a red T-shirt at a live gig.
I've got two words for ya...
Stage Clothes!

In the words of David Allen Coe...
Aint Nuthin' Sacred?!
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 27 June 2004 at 04:53 PM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 27 Jun 2004 2:43 pm

Look great and more than likley plays that way as well ,but for one thing "Its NOT an EMMONS.

Ron Lashley had the touch,catch up?? not sure
but good luck anyway.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 27 Jun 2004 6:37 pm

One thing for sure- there wouldn't be as much "buzz" about the push/pull tone if there wasn't something to it. I was very curious, and was luck enough to get a chance to play a bunch of P/P's at once (various Emmons, Fatback, Bolt-on, etc. courtesy of Mr. Tom Cassella), along with my 2001 Carter D-10 (with TrueTone pickups), for an amazing A/B test. No doubt, the p/p tone is not only special, but there are different flavors of it, depending on the horn and how it is set up (naturally!).

I felt the Carter "measured up", tone-wise, about 85%. The best p/p's had a certain extra 'zing', a ringing, sustaining, thick, resonant quality, that was undeniable. That 15% is icing on the cake, but substantial...but there are trade-offs. Many players feel that there is Nothing Else But a P/P, End of The Story.

I like the fact that the Carter D-10 weighs about 1/2 as much as the p/p, and that I could change the copedant around myself (I added a complex p4 change to the C6 neck successfully, and am nowhere near mechanically inclined).I'm happy with my Carter, tone and feel-wise. Out of adjustment P/P's can be stiff and tough to play, but properly adjusted by knowledgeable techs, they can play as smoothly as all-pulls.

It is akin to trying to find the "perfect Tele" (or perfect woman, for that matter!)- you can spend all your time chasing it! Everything in life requires some kind of compromise. I like the tone of my instrument very much, but I reckon most steel players have a "wandering ear" !

Anyway, I'd rather be honest and complain about my tone being my hand's fault rather than my horn's fault- 'cause it's true!

[This message was edited by John McGann on 27 June 2004 at 07:48 PM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 27 Jun 2004 6:48 pm

you`re right Jody,it is not an Emmons,it`s better than Emmons.Like Mr.Gary Sill said "it is a push pull tone on steroids".It`s a PROMAT .And even Bobbe Seymour himself after playing Emmons for 33 years ordered a black PROMAT,so that should tell something about this instrument.I think the PROMAT should be priced around at least 5K ,but that`s just me.I wouldn`t sell any of my two PROMATS for 10K.

DB

red T-shirt,it seems like lately on every picture I`m in a red T-shirt, hmm.maybe is Sheila right,maybe I should stop spending money on guitars and buy me some clothes...nah[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 27 June 2004 at 07:49 PM.]

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 27 Jun 2004 6:53 pm

hey Pete,
I just checked again,it is not red,it`s burgundy,,,

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 27 Jun 2004 7:28 pm

The action is comparable to an all pull in my opinion, maybe a touch stiffer in some instances.. but still can play in socks

If you rely on splits at all, push pulls don't really do them well (they can be done, from what I hear it aint pretty, though!)... ALTHOUGH, the "limitation" of the push pull changer design does lead to one fun, and interesting thing...if you engage a raise and a lower on the same string at the same time, the raise takes precedence, of course, now release the raise, and you go right into the lower, so you can 'anticipate' a lower after a raise without having to release the raise, THEN hit the lower, avoiding that 'stutter' if you are going for a smooth transition.

The weight is not THAT big of a deal, btw, you are talking maybe a few pounds at most from a modern all pull..however, compare a D10 with 8+5 push pull to say an original ShoBud Professional, or MSA Classic, or ZB, (any big-bodied lacquered steels) and you'll actually find the push pull a bit lighter!