give me your answers on TONE

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 22 Jul 2004 4:05 am

Basically my question is why does a push/pull differ in tone from an all pull?
For illustration purposes lets say we have taken into account all the variables like ...type and size of bar,picks,effects and amps etc.,and we have the same player at two steels.
What are and if so why are there differing tones?
Best regards
Billy

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 22 Jul 2004 6:23 am

It may have something to do with just the age of the wood. An old instrument always sounds more "mellow" that a new one.
Erv

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Jul 2004 7:14 am

Billy,

This is probably one of the most sought after "reasons" in the world of PSG. And there have been a number of theories put fourth.

For years I believed with every fiber of my being it was due to the fact that all lower fingers were pulled hard against the wooden body by heavy spring pressure under the guitar. I still believe this has much to do with it.

However, Bobby Seymour said on this forum a short time back, "that is NOT it!". If any other person (other than the late Ron Lashley Sr) had said that, I would have said, "maybe, maybe not".

But I have the highest and utmost respect for Bobby and his playing PLUS exemplary technical prowess concerning the PSG.

I will only state, that Bobby is going to have to prove that to me conclusively that its not what I believe it is; and it is indeed something else. If he does, I will graciously and humbley stand corrected.

IMO, it can't be:

1. The wood.

2. The keyhead.

3. The End plates.

Etc,

It can (I believe) be the changer, but if this is true, I have not a clue what. One thing is for sure, "that" sound IS there, and there is no question in my mind about it.

After years of thinking about it, I simply cannot acount for it in any other way than the lower fingers of the changer being pulled hard against the body.

There is still ONE other thing it might be if my thesis is wrong. Ron Lashley Sr once told me that the ribs and valleys underneath the aluminum neck were in essence "tuned sound ports" like on an enclosed speaker enclosure. But my problem here is, I believe I have heard there are P/P's that have "that" sound with wooden necks.

If it turns out to be something else (I have NO idea what it could be), I would give anything to know what it is.

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 22 July 2004 at 08:23 AM.]

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 22 Jul 2004 7:35 am

At the risk of sounding ignorant, has it ever been proven that any difference in timbre (or tone) that is detected (or suspected) between a push/pull and an all-pull is in fact actually there, and is in fact actually due to the difference in changer mechanism configuration alone and not due at least in part to some other factor?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Jul 2004 7:40 am

What do you mean by "tone"?

The amount of sustainability - the envelope of the picked note - is determined by the physical characteristics of the instrument.

The timbre - also known as frequency response - is determined by the electrical characteristics of the pickup.

The Emmons push-pull design combined excellent sustainability with a very popular, desirable timbre.

It should be noted, though, that playing technique, independent of the instrument's characteristics, has a very large effect on both sustainability and timbre.

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Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 22 Jul 2004 8:10 am

I can't explain it, but it can clearly be proven by demonstration and listening. I've had a Sho-Bud, a Mullen, a ZB, and 2 push/pulls. The Emmons push/pulls undeniably have a unique and special sound that the others don't. I've also heard the LeGrand all-pull Emmons guitars, Fessies, Derbys and though close, they don't have that push/pull factor. Proof is in the listening. The push/pull cries and sings and rings unlike any other guitar. And the difference is not subtle or psychological. It's pretty obvious when you sit down and play it and listen. It ain't hype, it's a fact.

Brad Sarno

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 22 Jul 2004 8:18 am

I agree, a good p/p does have a pleasing tone. I'm not too familiar with the changer design, but could you disconnect the lower fingers and then play it to see if the sound is still there? (If you were that curious about it.) I bet they were made from some good aged wood, also.

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 22 Jul 2004 8:39 am

If you have, or know of someone who has, the October-November 1997 issue of Steel Guitar World magazine, Mr.Seymour gives his theories on this very subject.

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 22 Jul 2004 10:44 am

I am not that familiar with push/pulls, only owned one in the very beginning and occasionaly played some, but I would venture to say, if you throw out the changer and undercarriage and change everything to all-pull, the tone will change drastically.

Regards, JH

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 Jul 2004 11:10 am

The difference in sustain, tone, and string separation is most noticeable to the player, not the listener. To the listener these differences are largely compensated with the volume pedal (for sustain), amp settings (for tone), and picking technique (string separation and tone). But for the player, the difference is very noticeable. It simply feels easier to get good sustain, tone, and string separation. When you switch to an all-pull, you will adjust your technique and settings to get most of what you need so the listener will hear little or no difference, but it will simply not come as easy for the player.

It's like the difference between playing a nice old Martin and a cheap new acoustic guitar. By the time it's miked and run through a sound system or recording board, the listener will not hear much difference. But it certainly feels different to the player.

Bobbe Seymour says there are several features that together account for the p/p sound, not a single feature (and I think at least some of this information comes from Lashley). In addition to the solid nature of the contact between the changer and body, the screws that hold the neck to the body can be "tuned" for maximum sustain and twang, or a more muted and darker sound, according to how tight the screws hold the neck to the body. I don't know how that works with a wood neck, but it might be possible to configure the underside of a wood neck the same as the aluminum neck to give a similar effect, and maybe Emmons did this. I don't know what the other features are that contribute to the sound. If Bobbe said what they are in that old article, I'd sure be interested. He seems to be cryptic and secretive lately.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 22 July 2004 at 12:24 PM.]

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 22 Jul 2004 12:33 pm

Hasn't Mr. Zumsteg figured this out with his new changer design???

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 22 Jul 2004 7:33 pm

Ive had a couple of push pulls I got Mike Cass to set them up and left them alone and they stay in tune better than anything Ive ever played and if set up right play good to so what I cant figure is why everyone is tring to get something else to sound like a push pull, if that is what you want GET ONE
some of the other guitars sound just as good but different. Who on here is going to tell me Paul Franklin doesnt get a great tone,no one. I was a sax major in college and ran through thousands of dollars worth of mouthpiecs tring to sound like my favorite player and finally realized it wasnt the mouth piece it was the player. Now I dont buy into the its all in your hands theory at least not totally. Different people sound different on the same guitar but that doesnt mean every guitar they play will sound the same. That would be like saying a guitar player is going to sound the same on every guitar, that is crazy. Any find what works for you and stick with it. That would do more for most people on here including myself/ I see the same people buying and selling something every month or two. I think this shows they are not happy with what they have buy changing guitars every three months wont cure it

Jeff

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 23 Jul 2004 12:23 am

Push Pull has a unique TOTAL vibration throughout the whole guitar. I've never experienced that with any all pull guitar.

A properly set up Push Pull is just "ALIVE" when you sit down and start to play.

I don't know why myself. I've always thought its due to the changer.

Keeping as many lower stop screws in contact with the changer on my Legrande makes the Legrande almost "push pull like" in feel and play, but nothing is exactly like a push pull to me.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 23 Jul 2004 4:22 am

I do not have the answer but Bobbe Seymore told me there are seven things that make them sound like they do. I have a suggestion. Buddy Emmons designed the push-pull so maybe we should ask him. If anyone knows I would bet he does. Regardless of what the answer is to this question I believe they were the best sounding steel ever made. Just my personal opinion.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 23 Jul 2004 7:00 am

I would suspect Bobbe is right in this.

The main difference seems to be the changer and how it couples the strings to the body.

Most all pulls have a rod with the string fingers coupling the vibrations to the body and not much else.

With the PP the strong coupling of the changer fingers to the body would cause a greater interaction with the body.

A lapsteel has the strings in very strong interaction with the body.
An all pull much less relatively.
A PP more coupling relative to the all pulls.

This would logically give a more body interactive resonance.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 23 Jul 2004 7:16 am

Just a thought! If they (P/P) were the best steel ever made, everyone else should stop building, because; it's all over! Everyone else is now wasting their time, trying to improve on perfection!

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“Big John” Bechtel
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Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 25 Jul 2004 8:55 pm

My understanding of TONE is as follows. A note has a fundemental frequency. On each side of this frequency, there are Harmonic frequencies ABOVE & BELOW the fundemental frequency.... How well these freQuencies are produced, {or lack there of] determines the tone. A few facts are in order here. Tone is percieved in part, and subjective, unless you use real good test equipment....to prove it.. Resonance has a lot to do with tone. All boils down to timbre... you cant have one without the outher..... In case of steel guitars, It is the design and the way it is built and quality of material and workmanship.. Take two bells made from the same mold. do they sound the same? one brass , one bronze.. No way.. But the most important thing is the ability of the instrument to resonate the fundimental frequency and all of the harmonics, odd and even at the same amplitude, with a very slow decay. hope this helps someone,,,,,, jennings,,,,,

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 26 Jul 2004 1:16 pm

It is possible and probably quite easy (they've been able to do it for years with WAY less powerful computers, anyways) to analyze sound in terms of its harmonic content. You can break the sound down in terms of the strength of its various overtones throughout the length of the sound (Attack, Decay, Sustain, Release), and get a graph that tells you what is contributing to the timbre of the sound. This graph could then easily be compared to the graphs from other guitars, and you would then know exactly what the differences were.

Anybody with a decent computer recording set-up and access to several different Push-Pull and All-Pull guitars could probably do this analysis. I don't actually really know what I'm talking about, but I think something like this would do the trick: Sigview.com.

Also--how is it that those Line 6 guys do their Variax modelling and analysis? Presumably however they analyze tone would be a method that could be applied to figuring out the differences in tone between a Push-Pull and an All-Pull. This wouldn't solve the question of why a Push-Pull sounds different, but it would definitively answer the question of how the sound is different.

Anybody who actually knows something about this topic please correct/enlighten me.

-Travis

Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 26 Jul 2004 2:49 pm

Interesting thought.... Line 6 products do not generate musical sounds... they only shape the frequencies of a fundimental frequency, adding distortion, adding clipping, reshaping in various ways the primary freq. so that the sound is artificial from the original. Line 6 amps are not [musical instruments]. One could maybe run a compairson with a spectrum analizer, but that would not tell you WHY a pp sound the way it does..the only way I can think of is to use the analizer and take it apart, measuring all the while, trying to find an answer....A pp is like an Orange, it is the SUM of many parts and DIMENTIONS that give it its beautiful sound.. as big E told me, pleasing to the ear, that is the objective,, and was designed into a pp. I suspect part of it is deliberate, and there is a part by accident? Nature of the beast. Best to all, hope this helps some,,,, Jennings

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

James Lutz · Post by **James Lutz** » 26 Jul 2004 3:02 pm

What I wonder is how Buddy can sound like Buddy whether he plays the Blade, or an EMCI or an all pull Emmons. He seems to get "that sound" with anything he sits at and tweaks for a few minutes...

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Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he's gone for the whole weekend.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 26 Jul 2004 3:38 pm

Jim, that kinda talk is almost heracy here on the Forum!

You'd better duck!

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 26 Jul 2004 7:16 pm

Ive read comments from several people lately that the emci sounds almmost like a push pull Even Mike Cass once told me they were very similar, so what gives, is it the welded frame, arent other guitars made that way. I think Jimmie Crawford could shed a lot of light on the subject. He built most of the push pulls used in Nashville for years. The guys In Nashville ordered kit guitars and had Crawford put them together, or at least Ive heard a lot of them did. I hope I havent opened a can of worms

James Lutz · Post by **James Lutz** » 27 Jul 2004 5:09 am

Donny--I ain't a-skeert. All I say is what I believe to be the truth. I've been banging around the honky tonks for over 30 years now and keep my eyes and ears open and one thing I keep seeing over and over again from one generation of pickers to the next--too many musicians listening with their eyes instead of their ears...

I prefer to spend my spare time practicing and not debating who can outplay who and what machine has some sort of built in tone that no one else can get. Tone starts in your heart and comes out your hands.

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Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he's gone for the whole weekend.

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 27 Jul 2004 5:20 am

Jim said......
"What I wonder is how Buddy can sound like Buddy whether he plays the Blade, or an EMCI or an all pull Emmons. He seems to get "that sound" with anything he sits at and tweaks for a few minutes..."

-----------------------------------------------Herby Wallace made the same remark about a good friend of mine,who also builds a fine "CLR" steel. Every guitar he has owned sounds the same, with a couple of exeptions. Is it in the hands???????

I'm not saying Chas is a Buddy Emmons, but a fine player in his own right...(only one BE)

Bill
[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 27 July 2004 at 06:23 AM.]

Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 27 Jul 2004 11:20 am

Some people can get a good "Tone" . Some can't.....Is it the instrument, or the player? Combination of both? "tone" is generated. By inst. By people..?????????????? oh well good arguement.. Jennings

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +