Millenium

Jerry Clardy · Post by **Jerry Clardy** » 24 Jun 2004 6:36 pm

I don't think Johnny's link to MSA is working. Here's one that should. There's a lot of good info to be seen by roaming around the site.
You can see the Millennium here

kbdrost · Post by **kbdrost** » 24 Jun 2004 8:23 pm

Having read Carl's comments and Johnny's reply, and in the interests of full disclosure let me say this:

1. I did break a center ball joint, but at the TOP of the pedal rod. It was on pedal 8, which I rarely use, and it was within 3 weeks of owning the guitar. MSA replaced it immediately, for free, and gave me a couple of spares, which I've never had to use. Kyle at MSA also asked me to return the broken part (which I did) so they could analyze it to determine the cause of the failure.

2. I did break the LKL knee lever. The plastic piece disconnected from the metal base. I crazy glued it back on and it held until I had the guitar upgraded for a new changer, at which time MSA replaced it (and all my other levers) for free. The new levers are designed differently to prevent failure (so I'm told)

3. I have had one problem with a horizontal rod that will not properly adjust. There is some kind of problem with the open slotted hole in the bellcrank, because the pull has no response when I turn the nylon tuner, unless I grab the rod with a pair of pliers. I have not even complained yet to MSA about this, but I'm sure they will take care of it when I do.

4. I absolutely LOVE the knee levers on the rear apron (as I love the adjustable pedal rods). It makes the guitar so much easier to play for me. I know others prefer otherwise and I know MSA will give you the option to locate the knee levers wherever you like. This reminds me of the "Mercedes" comment, because that company will likewise let you customize your product just about however you please.

What all this tells me is that this company has an innovative, quality product that they continue to strive to perfect, and they have a customer service commitment to the people willing to pay the kind of money they are charging for their product. Johnny and Junior (Knight) are relentless in their pursuit of customer satisfaction. My guitar is serial no 0006, which makes it even older than Fred's. Given the fact that no one has ever made a product like this before, I don't doubt that there will be issues to be worked on and improved. What impresses me is: the company's commitment to service; the innovative design incorporating the best ideas about setup, utility and playability; and, the incredible tone they manage to produce out of something that weighs virtually nothing.

I know some will say that they expect nothing less than absolute, flawless perfection for a $6500 price tag. You are entitled to your opinoin but I believe that your right to that utopia will not arrive, if at all, until judgment day. In the meantime, it's nice to know that there is a company at the cutting edge of the technology of this instrument that is not afraid to incorporate bold, innovative modifications and commit the resources to fine tune the experiment for the benefit of all of their customers. I hope they continue to push the envelope for all of the manufacturers out there. This can only result in a benefit for all of us.

------------------
Ken Drost
steelcrazy after all these years

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Jun 2004 10:08 pm

For some things, Crazy Glue™ is just what the doctor ordered..

EJL

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 25 Jun 2004 9:29 am

For the record-while my previous post on this thread did touch upon one negative aspect of the Millenium in the detuning issue-It was not written to dissuade anyone from considering to purchase this newest MSA-I am otherwise quite pleased with the guitar and have no regrets about my buying it-if you look at every other pedal steel guitar-with the exception of perhaps the futuristic Harmos or the rarely encountered Anapeg-it is quite obvious that no really major design changes have been implemented by the major manufacturors in the last twenty years! Except for the Millenium and its carbon fiber body which presents three very welcome improvemements to me and they are-#1)significantly decreased weight,#2)greatly decreased string breakage (I have only broken 1 high G# in the eight months of owning it and none of the others), and #3) noticeable clarity and eveness of tone in the upper register above the 12th fret-b0b you are a more forgiving sort than myself-I cannot hear a 2 cent drop deviation-3 cents is difficult too-but when doing the standard "pick the E and press A + B" test for detuning-a drop of 4 cents is clearly audible to my ear and therefore I place the threshhold of acceptable detuning at the amount of minus 3 to 4 cents-while some may consider this perhaps as "splitting hairs" the fact is that the Virtual Strobe Technology of the Peterson tuners allows us to do exactly that down to one tenth of one cent-In fact with my V-Sam I have discovered that the Sperzel tuning keys on the Millenium themselves are only accurate to within one cent-I also will allow that at any given time my playing-in attempt to "transcend the straight round bar" my left hand positioning may be several cents or more off the fret marker-to me that is all the more reason to have the most accurate and stable instrument in regard to its abilty to "hold" the tuning without deviation in pitch

[This message was edited by PAUL WARNIK on 25 June 2004 at 06:55 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Jun 2004 10:34 am

Paul, I position my bar to the tonal center of the chord by ear. This means that sometimes when I press A+B I will roll the bar forward slightly. 5 cents is 1/20th of a fret. When the tuning difference of cabinet drop is less than the amount of error between my ear and my left hand, I blame my ear and left hand, not the guitar.

Every chord position has a unique variance of bar position as it relates to the fretboard. Unless you tune ET, cabinet drop is not the largest factor in that variance. It fact, cabinet drop actually helps certain positions sound more in tune on the E9th (the F# strings with pedals down, for example).

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 25 Jun 2004 11:02 am

b0b-I clearly understand your technique in bar placement to compensate for drop in the closed position-I do this too sometimes and commonly refer to that as "Fudge Factor"-the F# notes on my Millenium have the tunable compensators which flatten the F# approximately 14 cents when the first pedal is applied-OOOPS make that two high G# broken now since I got it

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Jun 2004 11:18 am

No, I don't move the bar to compensate for cabinet drop. I move the bar to compensate for all of the intonation differences I hear between different chord positions. For example, when your B string raised to C# is the root of a chord, you have to move the bar to be in tune (unless you tune ET). Zero cabinet drop won't change that fact.

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 25 Jun 2004 2:31 pm

b0b-I guess then perhaps you could be comfortable playing a PSG that has no fret lines at all

string players (violin,cello,doghouse bass) always do-I heard that B.E. experimented with it-I myself do indeed need to have the frets visable as point of reference

kbdrost · Post by **kbdrost** » 25 Jun 2004 6:21 pm

Paul, your ears are more sensitive than my dog's

I'm still looking forward to hearing your "2 cents" worth on that old Sho Bud.

------------------
Ken Drost
steelcrazy after all these years

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 25 Jun 2004 8:27 pm

Ken-my friend-love your sense of "homespun humor" Too bad you had to cart away that Pro-III that you got from me to your other place-we could have had a good time doing a side by side comparison with the old Pro-II that I just got-Yeah I was amazed that this Old-Bud only dropped 2 cents-even more amazing is that after 30 years of playing steel I have "come full circle" again back to enjoying having a Sho-Bud to play

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 28 Jun 2004 6:55 pm

Folks,

I got an email from a very dear person, that has asked me to answer Jeff Agnew's question. I promised I would. Upon rereading all Jeff's posts, I felt I had already answered Jeff.

But after reading them yet again, I feel maybe Jeff's "reply" post was more of a question than I had originally perceived.

Ok, on behalf of the very dear person who asked me to answer Jeff, let me do the best I can.

I feel right knee levers that are mounted on the rear apron are a "Con" while left knee levers mounted on the rear apron are a "Pro".

I will explain in more depth why I feel this way. Again I covered it I thought but I see now I gave the reason for why the left knee levers were ok; but NOT why the right knee levers were a con if installed on the rear apron.

This is my thinking. IMO, the overwhelming number of PSG players sit in such a way that the right leg is further under the guitar than the left leg.

Let's see If I can show this pictorally. While there are some that sit with there legs like the letter V, MOST players I believe, sit with the legs like the letter V, only with the right leg straight respect to the guitar, and the left leg at an angle (still looking like the letter V) respect the guitar. If you can picture what I am saying. I can't show that with any letter on my keyboard.

But if you analyze it for a moment, if the the letter V is turned counterclockwise so that the right leg is straight up and down and the left leg is angled very acutely to the left, it follows that the right leg is always more forward than the left leg in relation to the guitar.

This means, IF the left leg makes contact with its knee levers near the knee part of the leg, the right knee levers would make contact further back on the thigh IF the right knee levers were installed on the rear apron.

The only way then for the right knee to contact the levers at approx the same place the left knee contacts its levers, is for the right knee levers to be further forward under the guitar than the left knee levers are.

If the right knee levers are located on the rear apron, I find this a "con" based on the above. Again, IF a player sits so the legs indeed do look like the letter V, then of course the above would not be the case.

Since I believe that MOST players do NOT sit this way, I believe it would only be a "pro" on the Millenium IF the factory "option" would be to move them to the rear; rather than the option to move them to the center.

One more comment, the first PSG I ever owned with right knee levers mounted on the rear apron was my Sierra. I found this a "con" the moment I sat down to the guitar. And I ended up having to fold these levers forward so the part that contacted the knee was in the center of the guitar. This caused these knee levers to have a different feel than if they had been straight down.

But it did not stop here. I noticed then in every single case where I saw another player playing a Sierra, they did the same thing.

So I must conclude then that while there indeed may be some who sit (Jeff maybe--or b0b?) with their right legs far enough back as to warrant the levers being mounted on the rear apron, I believe the overwhelming majority sit with the right knee further under the guitar. And as such a "con" rating with respect to this feature respect the Millenium.

Sincerely folks, I would NOT have posted this, If I had not received an email expressly asking me to answer Jeff. In other words, I felt after Johnny's last post, that I had said enough and best to let it alone.

I love Johnny Cox, Maurice and others associated with Millenium. I hope my pro and con posts have not turned this into a negative rather than a place that would lead to a more informed buyer.

Again from another post. I have NO axe to grind with the Millenium, or any person associated with it. I simply stated what I sincerely believe to be pros and cons. The opinions are my own based on my own experiences over the last 45 years of playing PSG's.

I fully recognize that my "cons" may indeed be another's "pros". Just like I believe with every fiber of my being that the greatest single improvement to the PSG since its inception, is the Emmons' 14 hole bellcrank.

However, at the same time I feel the RKL stop on the Emmons LeGrande is a definite "con" because it is NO where near positive. In addition, I believe that ANY PSG made today is archaic that does not have at the very minimum a triple raise/triple lower changer and preferably 4R/4L.

Finally, I believe the way crossrods are mounted on the Emmons' Legrande is the dumbest thing I have EVER seen a PSG manufacturer do. But I would still look long and hard at the Emmons's (and the Millenium) if I was in the market for a New guitar.

I would of course look at many of the others also. Which one I would buy would take into account ALL the pros and cons on every guitar.

Lest anyone believe there is a guitar on this planet that does not have some cons,

"I got some oceanfront property in Arizona and I will throw the Golden Gate Bridge in too"

May Jesus richly bless you all,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 28 June 2004 at 08:55 PM.]

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 29 Jun 2004 7:14 am

Carl,

I greatly appreciate you taking time to explain further. For the record, I have no idea who contacted you and I didn't ask for the, er, intervention.

I may have been dense in reading your prior response; it wouldn't be the first time I missed something

I was looking for a specific technical reason why KLs mounted at the rear were at a disadvantage. I actually did follow your thinking on player position and how it affects the distance of one's leg under the guitar. I just didn't see a specific reason why that makes a difference.

If I understand your most recent post correctly, the crux of your opinion is that you feel the left and right knees should contact their respective levers at the same point on each leg. Is that correct? If so, I would respectfully disagree. While perhaps desirable, I think it would just be a matter of acclimation. I've played guitars of both designs for many years each. While I certainly can get used to either design, I really miss the rear-mounted KLs.

I can't imagine most players position themselves such that the KL position on the leg is a priority. I orient myself first so my trunk, arms, and hands are in a correct and comfortable position. Legs and knees follow. Perhaps that's unusual.

I could understand one making the argument that contacting the leg toward the knee is a leverage advantage (perhaps you did and I missed it). I'll concede that point. But to me it comes at an unacceptable cost. The trade-off for that ease comes with the increased arc your knee must travel. On a common RKR setup (such as D#->C#) that's an uncomfortable distance for me. On a modern guitar with a rear-mounted RK, it's a much shorter throw. On a smooth-playing changer like the Millennium (which I don't own, BTW, so I've no vested interest here) it's also not noticeably stiffer. Also, it's interesting that on three of my four guitars, the RKR has a paddle designed to extend the surface area rearward.

My feeling is that the KL placement comes down to personal preference. And because so many guitars are built with center-mounted KLs, more players prefer it that way. I'm still not convinced there's a mechanical or technical advantage. I'll reiterate my conclusion from my original post: I think builders prefer it because doing so gives them more flexibility rodding and setting up changes on the back neck.

As ever, it's a pleasure discussing things with you, Carl. We may not always agree but your even-handed, rational posts are always enlightening.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Jun 2004 7:35 am

Carl

My LeGrande was built with the right knee levers mounted 'centrally' - or corresponding with the back of the E9 neck. I didn't ask for this, but that's how Ron made it, and it's perfectly comfortable for me. I still find I 'hit' the left knees (mounted at the guitar's rear apron) with my actual knee, and the right-levers just behind my knee-joint.

Is my Emmons 'standard', I wonder? I expect it is.....

Roger R.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Jun 2004 7:44 am

I don't prefer center-mounted knee levers, ever!

Witness: The P/P's with the RKR mounted at the center...only to have a floppy-dingus extension towards the rear of the guitar!

Duh?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Jun 2004 7:59 am

I never thought about it before, Donny - I do sit with my right side marginally closer to the guitar, but, in all honesty, I can't recall where my previous guitars' right-levers were postioned - none of them!

As for the 'floppy-dingus' on my Emmons - it stays folded up and out of the way (IF I keep the screw tight!).....

RR

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 29 Jun 2004 11:02 am

Roger,

I "think" I know what you mean. Lest there be any doubt, the standard Emmons' setup comes with the right knee levers mounted in the middle of the guitar and the left knee levers mounted at the rear apron or very close to it.

In fact unless, I am recalling something different than reality, MOST manufacturer;s PSG's are this way. The Sierra's and Milleniums are two major exceptions to that. I will go further and say that regardless of some who prefer the right knee levers on the rear apron, the vast majority prefer them in the middle. For the reasons I gave, IMO.

I liken it to the often repeated threads on this forum concerning the "Day/Emmons" pedals and where one "raises and lowers the E's".

The facts are:

1. Overwhelmingly Emmons setup

2. Overwhelmingly the raising AND lowering fo the E's is on the left knee

To each his own....

carl

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Jun 2004 11:24 am

Points taken, Carl - but my set-up is 'overwhelmingly Day'!

Best wishes...

Roger

PS: I must try a Millenium one day.....

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 29 Jun 2004 11:32 am

Carl, please re-read #5 in my original response to you. I stated that our standard placement for the R-R knee lever is in the center of our double-neck guitars along with R-L (as is the case with most other builders). Our first few guitars had R-R and R-L mounted on the rear as the old MSA was but we soon changed our standard placement. We do however still have many players of the older MSA guitars who request them on the rear of their new Millenniums and we are happy to do that as well.

------------------

Johnny Cox
<A HREF="http://www.msapedalsteels.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.msapedalsteels.com
</A>

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 29 Jun 2004 12:08 pm

I suspect 3/4 back to the apron would suit me just fine.
Any one else ask for that?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Jun 2004 12:55 pm

Carl, I guess I should qualify my preferences being a little different...for a reason. I like to sit farther back than most players. Most players sit very close to their guitar, while my own posture is very relaxed (kinda like the way a present-day kid sits at his school desk!). I also like the volume pedal about 4" back from the pedal bar, while most prefer the volume pedal actually fastened to the pedal bar. This, of course, may influence my lever position preference. These (lever and pedal loactions) are all personal preferences, and I don't claim to have the best insights. I feel whatever works for the individual player is what should be the guideline. Personally,
I tend to "turn off" whenever anyone (no matter how famous) says "You have to do it this way!"

For the overwhelming majority of listeners, I believe it's the music you make that's important, not the process of how you do it.

(There are no "absolutes".)

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 29 Jun 2004 1:31 pm

Both the RKL and RKR on my D-10 Millenium have the central mount-for a guy like me with long legs it is more comfortable and IMHO it just makes mechanical sense for levers that are operating both necks

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 29 Jun 2004 1:38 pm

First off, if anyone takes my post as a flame, I apologise ahead of time. (I have a feeling this will be a long one!)

PREFACE: I commend MSA for thinking outside the box with this guitar, and I hope someday, I have the fortune to play, and possibly even own one! To be honest, I recently purchased a new steel, and was open to all options, and yes the MSA was being considered, however my budget didnt agree. With that being said, a lot of critics will shoot down the advancements, however, we all have to remember, that the pedal steel is still in it's infancy. And steelers can either embrace the changes or fight them, just as people feel about computers or any technology.

1) First, and foremost, to the critics of making a guitar out of a 'plastic' (I say the term loosely, and in the definition of what a PLASTIC is -- NOT in the derogatory way some think of the term plastic -- i'm meaning plastic in opposed to wood or metal). BRAVO to MSA. I'm sure when the Emmons push pull was first let on the market, people squawked about how 'formica cheapened the guitar' as opposed to the long tradition of lacquering the wood. However, I would say a high number of current production steels are all formica covered. (maybe 90%?). Thank goodness Buddy and Ron were not afraid of the criticism and pushed forward, because today their thinking out of the box created a new benchmark. -- lest we not forget Sierra using aluminum bodies

2) Tone. Everything has been criticized on the tonal aspects, yet some time after acceptance, the tone is now benchmarked. I'm sure humbuckers in guitars were considered blasphemy, yet how many recordings are made today with humbuckers? To some when the Push Pull first hit, probably said 'that thing is too bright, and too whatever, and not the mellow, singing tone we all know and love... glad they made that advancement, now to most, the push pull is the benchmark in tone.

3) Mechanics> just as some criticize the mix of old and new technologies in the mechanics, and some are quick to criticize the 'advancements' -- without advancements, we'd all still be playing single raise/lower instruments, with fixed position bell cranks. As for the 'old tech' such as the 5 hole bell cranks, there are MANY new guitars made w/5 hole bellcranks, and they don't get criticized. The way pedal rods are adjusted is a GREAT innovation-- how many of use rely on the stampings that are hard to read, or other 'kludges'to identify our rods, wiht the Millinnium, no worry, just slap any of the rods on anywhere and go. BRAVO

In summary, what we criticize now for this and that, may someday BE what we all want/wish/hope for on our new guitars. If someone came out with an infinitely adjustable bellcrank we'd all want them, yet we are afraid to embrace a 'plastic' guitar? With that thinking, Peavey would never have sold a single Session, LTD, or Nashville series amp, yet we all own/owned/play/ or played through one at one time...
With closed minded thinking, we'd all be playing tube amps, using pot volume pedals, tuning with tuning forks, playing with run of the mill bars, using string sets scrounged together fromg guitar string sets, have the open faced tuning gears, all have single raise/lower changers, have wooden guitar bodies with lacquer checking all over, never use any TriFlo or other modern lubricants that dont attract dust, be using cheap coiled cables, our only effect would be spring reverb, and would only get to complain that "we wish there was an improvement to this or that" to non-steelers, or to newsletters as opposed to openly talking on the internet

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 29 Jun 2004 2:42 pm

Very respectfully Johnny, the following was just copied directly from the MSA Millenium website:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Each guitar comes with case, monogrammed cover and 3 custom cables

Delivery within 90 days of order date

All prices and offers subject to change without notice

Standard position for knee levers is rear of guitar - Custom placement is available<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Donny,

I agree with every word of your post 1000% except,

"there are no absolutes"

Hopefully one day we will meet (because I have the utmost respect for you) and I will give you bonified proof that there are indeed "absolutes". However they are no where to be found anywhere on a steel guitar.

Thank GOD!

and with that, I am outta here