Why Lower the D String on E9 ?

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 28 Sep 2003 8:35 am

I'm interested in reading comments about why this lever has become common.

If you have AB down, and lower the 9th string from D to C# you get a unison note with your 10th string. So why is it needed?

It does allow nice resolutions from a suspended chord to the major, but there must be more.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Sep 2003 8:39 am

Doug Jones showed me a bunch of stuff with it last weekend, and I'm doing a duo with him all week, I'll have him show me again. He lowers his with the last stop on his RR. I'm gonna see if I've got an extra rod and try it. There's some good stuff from what I remember.

EJL

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 28 Sep 2003 8:56 am

With that lever you can play C# on the 9th string and B on the 5th at the same time.

Skip Mertz · Post by **Skip Mertz** » 28 Sep 2003 9:21 am

Here's what I've been working on. Drop the 10th string a whole tone. you can get some real neat stuff by dropping those two together or independantly ,example #1
lower 10 and 5 whole tone and 6 whole tone gives you more flexability without having to put the Franklin 4 flr pedal. #2
strum all the way across from 10 to 3 one fret above root, slide to open root and lower 9 (other wise would have to mute) #3
strum across from 10 to 5 and lower 10 and 9
pretty Maj7th (actually can strum from 10 to 3 again) dont know what it is but Buddy will know what these are, I just know what sounds good to my ear. Kinda nice ending chords for Pop or Show tune maybe. I havent been playing long enough to know what I'm doing so I just play what I hear!

Dale Bessant · Post by **Dale Bessant** » 28 Sep 2003 9:34 am

Thats odd,funny you should bring that topic up at this time Joey, I have been thinking lately of disconnecting that change and putting it on my six string so that could be lowered, because frankly,I hardly think of using that change as it now exists....

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Sep 2003 9:38 am

Joey, aside from specific licks for the 9th string lower, there are two historical reasons for it. On older pedal steels you couldn't lower and raise the same string (Emmons' push/pull was the first to do both on the same string, so I've read). All the main strings(3,4,5,6,8,10) ended up with raises, so you couldn't have any lowers on them. The 2nd string needed a lower to get the 7th on top, and that also added a note of the scale with the AB pedals. C# was one of the only chromatic notes missing. So why not get it on the 9th string with the same lever that lowered the 2nd string (it was mechanically easy to get multiple lowers on the same lever).

These two lowers don't do much together, but they are so far apart on the strings that they don't interfere with each other and can be used separately. So by adding the C# lower to the 2nd string lowering lever you got an extra missing note very easily mechanically.

Also, it is interesting that for the early mechanics a lever to lower a string worked most easily moving right. A spring held the lever to the left against a stop, and pushing the lever right simply released the changer finger so that string tension let the string lower. So the "D" lever was put on RKR. And the "F" lever, which simply pulled the finger to raise the E strings was put on LKL, where it worked well with the A pedal.

And those were the typical 2 levers on many early 3x2 pedal steels. It was all so simple that it even worked like this on cheap "coat hanger" models, like the old Sho-Bud Maverick I started on. With modern pedal steels we no longer have these limitations, and if you don't find anything to do with the C# lower, get creative and do something else with that lever, or put the C# lower on another pedal or lever. Also, you can now switch levers around anywhere, so the D and F levers can be on any knee going any direction.

P.S. I'm just guessing about all that history stuff, maybe some of the gurus who were in the know back when can confirm or correct it. But the important thing is that there are some remnants of the standard copedent left over from earlier mechanical limitations, and these can easily be changed now. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 28 September 2003 at 10:43 AM.]

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 28 Sep 2003 10:53 am

Here's a small (53KB) MP3 I just recorded of my favorite lick using this change.

This example is in Bb, all on the 13th fret.

<UL>
[*]Pick strings 4 and 5 with AB down,
[*]Release A, play string 6,
[*]pick string 8
[*]then pick string 9
[*]lower string 9 while reapplying the A pedal.
[/list]

I first heard Doug Johnson use this in
"Kindly Keep It Country". He said he heard it on a George Strait song.

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 28 Sep 2003 11:01 am

On Tommy's "Hot Licks" video, his opening solo starts with the lowering of the D and gives a very different chord when used with the B pedal and 4,5,6,8, and 9th strings.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 28 Sep 2003 11:36 am

Here are a couple more:

1. As an ending chord, engage RKR making C#'s on string 2 and 9; PLUS add just the B pedal.

2. Begin strumming with the 9th string and walk up each string letting them all sustain, EVEN including the first string.

You have a full A6th chord with a suspended 9th. Great ending chord. The position (spelling) of the 9th tone (5th string B note) really embelishes the ending of certain songs.

3. Pick string 5, 6 and 9 with the knee lever engaged. It gives you a great C6 sound that is used often in western swing music.

Try it, you may just lack it.

carl

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Sep 2003 1:20 pm

Joey, nice little split resolve phrase ..

Several options..when resolving a chord with the AB Pedals..obviously use the 9th string lower to go down to the resolve note, rather than up to the resolve note with the 10th string A pedal..
Try this ..Peds A+B...resolve with the 9th string lower, release pedal A , play the 10th string then press pedal A..this gives you 3 notes on the resolve, 1 above, 1 under and the natural resolve note.

very similar to Joey's file above, but taken off the 10th string rather than 6..

1..9th string no lever
2-9th string with the lever
3-10th string no pedal
4-10th string with pedal A

just another choice..of many..

tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 September 2003 at 02:23 PM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 28 Sep 2003 2:13 pm

If you're coming in for a landing on I, and you've got that ninth string already happening from a previous thought, sometimes you don't want that I to come out sounding dominant...so 6th is a nice option:
<pre>
D7#9 G6

4-------------
5--4(a~~4--3--
6--4-------3--
7-------------
8-------------
9--4-------3L-
10------------

</pre>
-John

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 28 Sep 2003 6:07 pm

Joey

Just try playing 9,6,5 &4 with B & C pedals depressed, let the pedals off as you lower the 9th string - then slide down two frets, then three, as you let off the 9th lower and re-engage B & C.

That's just a starting point, but listen to that lovely timbre and the voicings you can get - it opens up the tuning a lot, in my view. I wouldn't be without it, and respectfully suggest that anyone thinks hard before taking it off their guitar.

I use it in 'Hill Street Blues' (among other things), by the way.

RR[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 28 September 2003 at 07:08 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 29 Sep 2003 7:19 am

Why lower 9 D-C#
Several reasons come to mind.

<pre>

C Major pentatonic scale positions
(also Am pentatonic scale)
F#---1------3-------8-------------
Eb---1LL----3LL-----8LL-----------
G#---1------3B------8-------------
E ---1L-----3-------8-------------
B ---1------3-------8-------------
G#---1------3B------8-------------
F#---1------3-------8-------------
E ---1L-----3-------8-------------
D ---1L-----3L------8L------------
B ---1------3-------8-------------

Chords
Cmaj7 C7 C6 C7 Am7
F#--------------------------------
Eb--------------------------------
G#--------------------------------
E --------------------------------
B ---10A----11----10----8----8----
G#---10B----11----10B---8----8----
F#---10-----------10--------------
E ----------11R---------8----8----
D ---10-----11L---10----8----8L---
B --------------------------------

A7 C#dim F9 F9 Cm6(F9) Gadd9
F#--------------------------------
Eb--------------------------------
G#--------------------------------
E --------------------------------
B ---8----8----8---7a---10----10--
G#---8----8----8L--7----10B---10B-
F#--------------------------------
E ---8R---8R---8---7R---10R---10--
D ---8L---8----8L--7----10----10L-
B --------------------------------
</pre>

A lot of how much one can get out of the D-C# lower depends on which raise/lower can be used together with it. Always see a knee lever in conjunction w what knee-levers are on the opposite knee.

The D-C# on 9th string is a "must have" IMO

Bengt Erlandsen[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 29 September 2003 at 08:33 AM.]

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 29 Sep 2003 10:31 am

I'm one of the old two string grippers still out here. I like this change when resolving from a I to a IV chord. Just pick strings 6 & 9 open then for the IV change just use the B pedal and the KL. You can reverse this move also. If you want to use more strings add the 8th in there.

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Dale Bessant · Post by **Dale Bessant** » 1 Oct 2003 5:27 pm

Well there's some real nice ideas here....

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 3 Oct 2003 11:44 am

Use this with E's lowered to Eb. for B maj. pentatonic madness from 1 to 10.

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 3 Oct 2003 2:03 pm

"Well there's some real nice ideas here...."

You said it, Dale!

Thanks folks!

Anymore???

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 3 Oct 2003 3:56 pm

I copied the following - totally without permission, but for a good cause - from a Jan. 9, 2002 post by Buddy Emmons:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>(...) The chords (in the song: "There's So Many Ways To Say Goodbye" with Ray Pennington) are turnaround chords as in The Nightlife. My pedals A & B are (A = B to C#) and (B = G# to A).
I don't recall the first chord position, but it was probably fret 8 or root position.
The second chord (Eb 13th) is at fret 11 with the pedal A down and playing strings 5, 6, and 9.
The third (Ab Maj 7), is at fret 6 with A & B down and strings 5,6, and 9. I played the chord first and added a melody line with the 1st and 4th strings.
The fourth chord (G7 aug) is at fret 3, using strings 4, 5,6, and 9 with a A half pedal.
For the final chord (C), stay at fret 3 and let the same strings sustain as you release the half pedal and engage the knee lever that lowers the D or 9th string, 1/2 tone. The chord resolves from the G7 augmented to a C add 9 chord and may be my pick of the litter for absolute brilliance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anybody disagree?

Rainer

------------------
Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 03 October 2003 at 04:56 PM.][This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 03 October 2003 at 04:57 PM.]

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 3 Oct 2003 7:26 pm

I am new to the Extended E9 tuning using 12 strings, but this D to C# drop allows me to play Memphis and Guitar Boogie for starters. I am looking for other uses, so this thread is of great help. It may be more important on a 12 string than a 10, I don't know. It seems to be a "missing link" for doing a lot of guitar type stuff on steel.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 1 Jun 2004 7:26 pm

....D-7........F-.......C
<pre>
1----------------------------
2----------------------------
3----------------------------
4----------------------------
5--3a~~3---------------------
6--3b-----3b-----3b--3b~~3b--
7---------3---3--------------
8----------------3r--3r~~3---
9--3------3------3---3~~~3L--
10---------------------------
</pre>
The F- chord could be interpreted as a G chord as well.
-John[This message was edited by John Steele on 01 June 2004 at 08:26 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Jun 2004 10:26 pm

I've had that change for over 25 years. I use it for chords, for harmonies and for melodies. My question would be, "Why not lower the D string on E9th?" I play a lot of stuff that depends on it. It would be silly to try to do without.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 2 Jun 2004 6:29 am

It also works great on a universal IF you raise the 9th string B to a C# with one knee lever AND raise it to a D with an opposite knee knee lever. As shown below:

<pre>

LKL2 RKR

F#
D# D C#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
B D C#
G# B
E
B

</pre>

Say you are holding a V chord playing 5, 6 and 8. As the strings sustain, pick string 9 as you engage RKR, immediately followed by LKL2. This took you from a V chord; to a passing 6th chord; to the V7 chord. I use this movement a lot. I call it "raising" into the 7th. It is just the opposite from the following:

<pre>

LKR RKR2

F#
D#
G#
E Eb (E)
B
G#
F#
E Eb D
B
G#
E
B
</pre>

As above while letting strings 5, 6 and 8 sustain, engage LKR; followed immediately with RKR2. It takes you from a V chord; to a passing minor chord; to the V7 chord. Only, unlike the above, you are "lowering" into the 7th.

I find that having both movments allows me to get what music does naturally all the time.

carl

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 2 Jun 2004 6:33 am

Hmmm, wonder why I didn't get all this when I asked this question last week?
I guess ya just got to be a vip member

------------------
84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 2 Jun 2004 6:51 am

Terry, actually it's my fault for dredging up an ancient (but interesting) thread.
I was just fooling around last night and stumbled over that... thought I'd better write it down somewhere before I forgot. It seemed like the logical place to write it.

-John

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 2 Jun 2004 7:03 am

"wonder why I didn't get all this when I asked this question last week?"

Hang in there Terry. If you check the date of my original post (8 months ago), you'll see that you should expect to get more replies in Jan 2005.

You're a VIP too.

Given his occupation, I get nervous whenever my buddy John talks about digging things up.

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 02 June 2004 at 09:17 AM.]