Your Steel Guitar Is Not A Piece Of Furniture

Lee Dassow · Post by **Lee Dassow** » 4 Apr 2015 4:41 pm

It looks like your steel guitar is slanted forward.
If it is I can see why you'ed drop your left wrist
somewhat lower than seems normal. However what ever position you choose to hold your wrist your playing is outstanding. Tennessee Lee

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 4 Apr 2015 5:33 pm

When I was a kid and became aware of Lloyd Green and his LDG, I thought it was the coolest thing ever... I liked the idea of the pad on back and still kinda like the idea of it... but that said, my Dad has an LDG, and when I’ve played it, with a short sleeve shirt on, in a warm climate, my forearms sweat something awful... I hate sweating, and being that I’m not all that fast anyhow, the sweating and the sticking on that pad slows me down even more... When I’m on my D-10 on a warm day, at least the strings on the C neck don’t interfere too much with what I’m doing on the E neck... I don’ t play the bottom neck enough to probably ever need to change the strings from over use, but when I do get down there, I really like the feel of nothing south of the neck than the back edge of the guitar... it feels free and liberating back there.

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 4 Apr 2015 10:14 pm

I find the SD10 to be the most comfortable for me to play. I started on an SD8, with just a flat area on the back and no pad, then went to a regular S10, then a D10 and when I finally got my first Sho~Bud LDG, it was the perfect guitar for me.

As they say, different strokes for different folks...

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 5 Apr 2015 3:00 am

This is MY pad. It weighs nothing, has a smooth surface and is held to the top by a strip of Velcro.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 5 Apr 2015 9:07 am

As we all know, Lloyd originally took off all the C6 hardware to reduce the weight.

Many years ago a local C6 player, I think it was the late and under-appreciated Johnny Davis, did the same thing, but took off the E9 hardware, so his guitar had the pad in front.

No kidding.

For whatever it's worth, I prefer a single neck without a pad.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 5 Apr 2015 10:48 am

Mike Perlowin wrote:As we all know, Lloyd originally took off all the C6 hardware to reduce the weight.

But it is worth noting that when he subsequently went to a newly made guitar, he chose to have the pad.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Apr 2015 1:32 pm

Zane King wrote: I just wholeheartedly believe going forward it is not helping the promotion of our instrument. Additionally, I sincerely believe it is wrong for the instrument. That's my opinion, of course. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

And, of course, we don't!

Everyone's physiology is different, so things like this will vary from player to player. Personally, I feel non-standard tunings and pedal setups are also not helping our instrument, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me, either.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 5 Apr 2015 3:23 pm

Maybe he thought it looked better.

Carl Williams · Post by **Carl Williams** » 5 Apr 2015 6:32 pm

Charlie, you may have a point there but seriously, Lloyd Green found what worked for him a lot sooner than many of us do (If we ever do! ha). His SD-10 LDG has been his workhorse and money-maker for 40+ years now. Bottom line, I wouldn't care what configuration a steel cabinet (S-10--SD-10 or D-10) was in if I had Lloyd's touch/tone that has inspired so many. In all honesty, I can't blame my lack of playing ability on my SD-10 Lloyd Green inspired steel cab...just not enough woodshedding or talent...

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 5 Apr 2015 7:26 pm

Zane I think if you raised you or your chair by an inch or even two you might find that the pad does not get in your way .

EVERY steeler (over 60 in the last 40 years) that comes to me is siting to low. As soon as I have them sit UP they begin to see the light and then we have smiles for miles.

Just a thought.

I find that the pad gives me a frame of reference for my arm and hand vs floating. I have played D10 forever so that is what I am use to doing.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 5 Apr 2015 11:21 pm

I actually I jack the front of the steel up and this tilts the steel to the back giving you an ideal look at the steel neck without having to bend over the steel. You sit up much straighter and don't look like you're sitting on a commode staining to take a crap! The arms and hands are aligned (no bent wrists, the most comfortable position I've found).
This places the pedals a little further away letting the legs stretch out a bit. Just all around better in every way! A pad would be no problem with this tilt.
Oh and if the bar slips out of your hand it falls back toward you instead of you having to chase it down on the dance floor when it rolls off the front.

You gotta admit I look comfortable.

Charley Hill · Post by **Charley Hill** » 6 Apr 2015 2:41 am

Lloyd and I have talked at length about this prior to the posting and he wanted to share his thoughts with everyone:

“Look guys, the idea for the SD-10 was not a brainstorm to change the steel guitar world, but rather a personal decision and one of expediency, practicality and convenience for me carrying that heavy Sho-Bud fingertip to session after session daily. I didn’t care if anyone else adopted the idea, or not.
In fact, although I was smart enough to intuit that it would bridge the gap between a pure single neck and traditional double neck I didn’t think enough players would be interested in it to copyright the idea, which would have provided royalties from every company who now makes them, starting with Sho-Bud, then Emmons, then (and now) all the others.
One caveat. I did receive royalties for all the LDG Sho-Buds produced from my idea.
That it ultimately became the “bridge” steel was strictly an evolutional thing, which became accelerated by all of us getting too old to carry the heavier double neck around as many have stated here, and the fact that some of us still like the feel and comfort of that wide double neck frame.
But I don’t try to convert anybody to anything. I hope every steel player will play whatever kind of steel his heart, mind and body tells him is best for him, not because some player they’ve heard of uses one. I sure was never swayed by what anyone else played nor how they played and certainly not by the instrument they used. I had enough ideas of my own which often conflicted with the prevailing ones. I would hope every one of you with good ideas floating around in your head would do the same thing. That’s where innovation, originality and ultimately inner satisfaction as a player bubbles from.
Zane, this is a most interesting topic…at least to me.”

Lloyd Green

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 6 Apr 2015 5:05 am

Always good to hear anything Mr Green has to say... He thinks of stuff I don’t even “know” to think!!

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 6 Apr 2015 7:29 am

Great idea there Hans. I to like a single neck steel. I've watched guys play who's elbows point to the floor. I just shake my head. I could never play like that. Ever take a good look at Buddy Emmons sit behind a steel guitar? Perfect posture. Then watch a great player like Robert Randolph. Not saying either one is right or wrong. But I try not to "Rest" behind my steel. If I need a pad, or towel, or cap of some kind to slide over a rear neck. I figure it's time for Geritol and Centrum. Mr. Green didn't put his pad on his steel as a form of playing aid, merely for less weight. Different Strokes.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 6 Apr 2015 7:59 am

Mr. Green didn't put his pad on his steel as a form of playing aid, merely for less weight.

+1 That's a very important point to remember.

Regarding SD10s, I never understood why a working musician who hauls his gear around would want a double body guitar with just one neck on it. Even when I was a young player in my 20s, hauling my gear from gig to gig, weight was an issue and I couldn't understand the SD10 concept. Just my opinion. YMMV

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 6 Apr 2015 8:38 am

I think it is an ergonomic thing....I have no sd guitars but to get really comfy on an s body...my knees are nearly plucking the pedal rods. I get the sd concept... the best compromise or possibly the optimum is found in the one and a half widths...unfortunately that vastly reduces the purchase options.

Charley Hill · Post by **Charley Hill** » 6 Apr 2015 9:09 am

“Doug Beaumier brings up another salient point. First, he is one of the best players around whom I know and have listened to, so I don’t take his words lightly. He’s a intelligent man.
I think I should have explained in more depth the reason I initially got the idea for the padded steel. It actually predates the “weight”
complaint. Obviously I was young, a runner who worked out and was in excellent physical condition and carrying the steel in and out of the studios presented no weight problems.
The first, and real reason was that my work was 99% recording sessions in the 1960s & ‘70s. I lived in those studios more than my home, by far. I was called on to play C6th on maybe a half dozen sessions a year out of 400-600 sessions yearly, and when I would attempt to inject a little C6th into a song invariably the producer would say, “That has that old timey sound”. Stick with the commercial neck”.
Now, what they were hearing were the 6ths & 7ths of the C6th tuning and to them it sounded….dated. Of course there were exceptions where I needed C6th; with Bob Wills and on some Western Swing albums but largely, for me and the top country artists of the era it required E9th. The idea thus germinated from those reinforced “old timey” comments by the top record producers.
I think had I still been a road player or gig musician the idea would never have entered my thoughts.
So weight was really just a ploy I was using to reinforce my position with Shot Jackson, who didn’t want me to take the neck off, saying it would ruin a perfectly good steel. But he relented and I never looked back. By the way, the steel that I “desecrated” was my Baldwin ShoBud D-10, not the Fingertip.
One final anecdote, and I promise not to comment further on this issue on the forum since I’m not a member.
After Shot reluctantly let one of the factory employees remove the parts and pedals for the C6th, I went directly from there to RCA-A studio for the start of a new Danny Davis and the Nashville Brass album. After setting up I asked Danny what type of album we were doing this time. He said, “Western Swing”! My heart almost stopped…for a moment. I cut the album, using the C6th sounds and pedals on the E9th to fake it and nobody even knew I no longer had a C6th neck. As I said, I never regretted my decision nor looked back.

Lloyd Green

Charley Hill · Post by **Charley Hill** » 6 Apr 2015 9:09 am

“Doug Beaumier brings up another salient point. First, he is one of the best players around whom I know and have listened to, so I don’t take his words lightly. He’s a intelligent man.
I think I should have explained in more depth the reason I initially got the idea for the padded steel. It actually predates the “weight”
complaint. Obviously I was young, a runner who worked out and was in excellent physical condition and carrying the steel in and out of the studios presented no weight problems.
The first, and real reason was that my work was 99% recording sessions in the 1960s & ‘70s. I lived in those studios more than my home, by far. I was called on to play C6th on maybe a half dozen sessions a year out of 400-600 sessions yearly, and when I would attempt to inject a little C6th into a song invariably the producer would say, “That has that old timey sound”. Stick with the commercial neck”.
Now, what they were hearing were the 6ths & 7ths of the C6th tuning and to them it sounded….dated. Of course there were exceptions where I needed C6th; with Bob Wills and on some Western Swing albums but largely, for me and the top country artists of the era it required E9th. The idea thus germinated from those reinforced “old timey” comments by the top record producers.
I think had I still been a road player or gig musician the idea would never have entered my thoughts.
So weight was really just a ploy I was using to reinforce my position with Shot Jackson, who didn’t want me to take the neck off, saying it would ruin a perfectly good steel. But he relented and I never looked back. By the way, the steel that I “desecrated” was my Baldwin ShoBud D-10, not the Fingertip.
One final anecdote, and I promise not to comment further on this issue on the forum since I’m not a member.
After Shot reluctantly let one of the factory employees remove the parts and pedals for the C6th, I went directly from there to RCA-A studio for the start of a new Danny Davis and the Nashville Brass album. After setting up I asked Danny what type of album we were doing this time. He said, “Western Swing”! My heart almost stopped…for a moment. I cut the album, using the C6th sounds and pedals on the E9th to fake it and nobody even knew I no longer had a C6th neck. As I said, I never regretted my decision nor looked back.

Lloyd Green

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 6 Apr 2015 10:34 am

"Aspiring Steel Guitarist"

Bwaa!

Not wanting to derail this fine thread, and noticing and appreciating Lloyd's contribution, I've posted a question I've had for Lloyd for some time over in "Steel Players", if Charley and Lloyd could check in I'd greatly appreciate it.

Charley Hill · Post by **Charley Hill** » 6 Apr 2015 7:34 pm

Hi Mark.....

I sent you an email......Hope you are doing well, neighbor!

Charley

Dan Robinson · Post by **Dan Robinson** » 6 Apr 2015 9:11 pm

Well, let me say this about that...

Whatever you might think about a pad, this got me thinking about posture, upper-arm and fore-arm geometry, but mostly about self-awareness.

A while back I was experiencing terrible numbness in my hands after playing for 10 or 15 minutes. "The Cure" was not too difficult, and didn't require surgery (at least not on me). I figured out that I was playing with a tremendous amount of tension in my neck and upper back muscles. Pressure on the nerves was causing loss of sensation in my wrists and hands. The fix is now in! I raised the front of the guitar one inch, set rear height so it no longer has an exaggerated forward tilt (now closer to level). Adjusted height of my seat, easily done with my favorite Tama drum throne. Now I sit up straighter, more relaxed, with forearms nearly parallel to the floor. All that nasty tension is gone.

This does take me back to the piano lessons of my boyhood (paid for by Mom, with no obligation). What a fool I was to give them up because I thought only the guitar was "cool." Mom still has that baby-grand, and knows how to play it.

What would this mean to my playing a guitar with a pad? I have no idea, but I am now more "in touch" with my own skeletal and muscular mechanics. Most definitely a good thing!

Dan

Charley Hill · Post by **Charley Hill** » 7 Apr 2015 12:46 pm

You say pad, I say no pad....you say tomato and I say to-ma-to
Just like asking a steel player how he tunes his guitar......a plethora of answers will ensue.

TravisWright · Post by **TravisWright** » 8 Apr 2015 7:47 am

Lane,

I'm a new player, about 6 months in to this fun journey, and just wanted to say that your video was very helpful. I relaxed my shoulders last night, and could immediately tell a big difference.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 8 Apr 2015 8:49 am

Dan Robinson wrote:Whatever you might think about a pad, this got me thinking about posture, upper-arm and fore-arm geometry, but mostly about self-awareness.

I think the thrust of the video was well-taken, pads aside.
You do a good job, Mr. King, and a testament follows:

Travis Wright wrote:I'm a new player, about 6 months in to this fun journey, and just wanted to say that your video was very helpful.
I relaxed my shoulders last night, and could immediately tell a big difference.

I'm only short and wonder at people who are tall enough to tilt a steel forward.
Ergonomics hadn't occurred to me; it keeps your wrists straighter while the shoulders remain relaxed.
(The pad doesn't seem an impediment when the guitar tilts back--and it's only an arm rest for between songs.

)

Good video!

TravisWright · Post by **TravisWright** » 8 Apr 2015 9:06 am

I should also add this to clarify - I have a Pad, and I've only ever played with a pad, so i can't comment on that. My guitar is flat on the ground as well, no slant in either direction.

The biggest thing was realizing how much pressure I was applying with a very tense left shoulder. Even with a pad, I was able to relax and use the natural weight of my hand.