Your E raise and lower on right side anybody?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 May 2004 5:11 pm

Terry,
If you have a problem holding A+B and engaging LKL, your guitar may not fit you well. It should be very easy to hit A+LKL alone and A+B+LKL with little effort. You should also be able to combine A+LKR. I have two LKR's and can hit A or A+B with either of them. You may need to adjust the tilt of the knee levers to get the proper positioning. Many of the newer guitars have adjustable lever angle. Worth checking out.

Like b0b, I lower on RKL and raise on LKL. There's a whole tone D# to F change that can be used smoothly if they're on opposing knees, but not if they're on the same one. The main reason I lower E's on RKL is that I combine that change with all 8 pedals, plus four of my five left knee levers.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 13 May 2004 at 06:14 PM.]

MARK GILES · Post by **MARK GILES** » 13 May 2004 7:34 pm

I raise and lower mine with the right knee. I raise my E's a full tone also. My first guitar came that way along with Day pedal setup. I've tried the other combinations and this works best for me.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 14 May 2004 2:56 am

Reading all the comments and replys just really brings me to the conclusion that I all already knew..many of us have very personal Steels, and one players setup may clearly not be the choice for anothers.

I fully understand what b0b stated above as at one time I had the E's on opposite knees and really liked it..there was a movement that could be made naturally that cannot be accomplished having them both on 1 knee..but..that being said..I did moved them both over to the left knee.

Larry's comments about being able to accomplish all the changes of the left knee levers with AB, A or B I feel is very accurate. The Steel may need some adjusting if it feels too whacky.

I too use the AB , A or B with either E lever and at first it did seem a bit awkward..but heck..the whole stinkin' Instrument is awkward !

And while we are at it..don't forget that the Bb lever is commonly used with the A Pedals and E raise Lever , extremely awkward at first..but none the less..off of the left knee on my Guitar and still apart of the equation.

There are no rules as to where changes are placed on an Instrument..and there are no rules that state you can't move a knee lever over an inch or two for a better logistical location to fit a players physical attributes.

John Fabian showed me a little Bb lever move with the A pedal and the with the E raise lever..at first I though he was on drugs..he looked at me and just said practice the movement for an hour or two..and I did..and lo and behold..now this once awkward movement is part of my regular programming .

Point is this..the entire Instrument is leaning toward the awkward side..if something is possible but clumsy..it may just mean "More Practice"...

I think it was Buddy who told me that by placing the most changes that can be accomplised on a single knee position is what allows you the flexibility to add or experiment with changes on the opposite knee..No cancelling or redundant changes please. Who would argue with "E" ? Not me..

It is apparant that most playing is done with the AB combo's and the E raise and lower levers so keeping them "All in the Family" so to speak allows the other side of the guitar to be used for the extra's..make sense ? It does to me..

but..there are no rules..

t

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 14 May 2004 4:53 am

When I got my first "real" steel in '77 it was a ShoBud S-12 which came with the E's lowered on the RKL and raised on the LKL. I changed the E lowers to the LKR as that's the way Emmons did it. A short time later I went to a Universal and the LKR didn't work for all the pedal changes so I changed everything to the right knee. Now I lower the E's on RKR and lower them on RKL. I have no problem holding the knee lever over for extended periods or with the volume pedal. I find that you really don't have to hold the lever over for a long time as the Universal is really one tuning and you use it both ways at the same time. Long ago I quit thinking of it as two tunings and just as one big tuning that does everything.

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 14 May 2004 at 09:40 AM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 14 May 2004 6:49 am

my ShoBud Professional has the E to Eb lower on RKL and the E to F raise on RKR
i'm used to it that way and it does'nt hinder using my VP
on my Zum, i've got E to Eb on RKL and E to F on LKL (i prefer it there when using pedal A at the 3 above position)
B to Bb is on LKV (which is handy w:A+B down)
many paths go through the forest, but they all come out on the other side

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 14 May 2004 7:37 am

Larry I've never tried the E's on the left side, I was just wondering if it was diffulcult to work the E's and A and B pedals at the same time with them on the left side.

------------------
TW Sneed

Gord Cole · Post by **Gord Cole** » 14 May 2004 11:56 am

Universal 12 string. Raise=LKL. and Lower=RKL.
Cheers. Gord

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 14 May 2004 1:20 pm

Jeff Newman's setup on U-12, lowers on RKR and raises on RKL....JH

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 14 May 2004 4:42 pm

I played with RKL lowering and LKL raising for 30 years. My Emmons I now have was set up the standard Emmons LKR lower, LKL raise. It has taken me a couple of months to get used to the change. One thing I miss on my old set-up is the quickness between raising and lowering. There is a few things I do that requires a very quick lower then a raise. It was so much easier on my old set up. I haven't decided yet if it is worth changing, because I am still trying to get used to the new change. You can learn to use the other knee, which was a question you asked. It just takes a little time.

Ronald Moore · Post by **Ronald Moore** » 14 May 2004 6:46 pm

I have both E levers on the right knee. My first guitar was set up that way and that is the way I learned. Since I have played a U-12 for a long time now that is the best way. For E9 you can use any pedal with either E lever and it doesn't matter. I use just four knee levers though. I suppose if you had 8 or 9 levers it could get crowded under there. Ron

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 May 2004 9:27 pm

You use them simultaneously? What does that do for you? Seems like raising and lowering would cancel each other or give you some weird semi-tone.

I engage one while I release the other. It gives me a fast full-step change in the F lever position.

Consider key of A at the 8rd fret, first pedal down. Using both levers gives you the B to C# change on both of the E strings. To borrow a quote from Carl, "I couldn't live without it."

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 14 May 2004 9:40 pm

I'm with b0b on this one. Only difference is my E to Eb is on RKR and my E to F is on LKL. This way the transition b0b described (which I use a lot) is easily and smoothly achieved with none of the "dead zone" one gets if both changes are on only one knee.

------------------
Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 15 May 2004 3:39 am

RkR lowers 4and 8 1/2 tone...RkL raises 4and 8 12... couldn't and WOULDN'T have it any other way.. If a guitar has any other set up,It's imstantly attacked with Allen wrenches so as to submit to my will! bob

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 15 May 2004 6:00 am

Buddy,

Thanks for pointing this out

Carl,

Sorry, I mistakenly responded to your post as if you were concluding in general terms that the positioning of these two levers to one leg would maximize the options for everyone. You were only speaking on personal terms which was the part I missed. Please accept my apology.

So you know, All I said was that I respectfully disagreed with your conclusion of placement. It was not true that the one leg position maximizes the most options for everyone.

To the topic thread, Let me correctly add,
I do agree that it is true that for many, having these changes on one leg does maximize the options for those who choose certain musical avenues. The problem with music is that there are so many roads to take

[This message was edited by Franklin on 15 May 2004 at 10:35 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 15 May 2004 at 10:53 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 15 May 2004 at 11:06 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 15 May 2004 7:14 am

I see this whole pedal/knee lever placement issue like this.

Players have these changes split to two legs or have both on the left or right leg. Some have a few levers and some have as many as five levers on both legs if they choose. The options are abundant.

The only advantage of placement lies within an individual musicians mind. Players reach placement conclusions from all of their studies towards the musical direction(s) they seek to reach. Some players have the same needs and desires so there are many who agree with one direction of pedal placement over another. That point is moot because there are just as many players who disagree with any players setup.

The creative vision for finding the best path to utilize knee levers with the floor pedals is why almost all steel players use different positions for certain changes.

The only pedal positions that all steel players seem to completely agree on is the ABC floor pedal configuration. Even then, some prefer CBA to ABC, but all agree that BAC, BCA, CAB and ACB would not work as well.

I believe, until it becomes crystal clear for having these, or any other changes, in a universal position to accomplish all the musical ideas individuals desire, then and only then, could there be a solid reason to say one position has an advantage over another for everyone.

I personally hope that never happens. The different pedal setups are key reasons that helps seperate an individuals musical voice from the next guy.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 15 May 2004 at 11:01 AM.]

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 15 May 2004 7:45 am

Paul, listen very carefully.
Carl was referring to his desire to maximize his change combinations, not whether it was a better way to go than your setup, or b0b's, or anyone else's.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 15 May 2004 7:48 am

The only pedal positions that all steel players seem to completely agree on is the ABC floor pedal configuration.

And I don't even agree on that (just AB here).

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 15 May 2004 8:47 am

Buddy,

I meant nothing personal, nor condescending towards Carl. He and I are good friends and he knows I hold the utmost respect for his knowledge and contributions here. We disagree all the time without shattering that respect. It's all good! He is absolutely right to choose the one leg placement because it gives HIM the most possibilities.

In the post before yours, I believe I explained my view on pedal placement very clearly. And it clearly states that I believe any setup is only maximized within the individual players mind, not literally for everyone.

I never say my way is better. I was saying that there are also many possibilities that are not there when those changes are on one leg. The word I disagree with, and is at the heart of this issue according to the thread topic, is "maximize." You are right to point out that Carl uses the word pertaining to his desires only.

I personally believe having them on one leg as Carl and Buddy does gains alot and loses alot. The same holds true with the way I do it because it is all math, Which was my point and I suppose b0b's towards the general topic and not specifically to Carl.

We should all choose what works best for us regardless if that is true for everyone. When someone maximizes any changes possibilities and its placement, there will be a universal placement.

Paul
[This message was edited by Franklin on 15 May 2004 at 10:28 AM.]

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 15 May 2004 9:10 am

I read all posts very carefully and I can say your last one explained what you really meant much better than the previous two.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 May 2004 9:17 am

I don't have a C pedal either.

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 15 May 2004 9:32 am

I'll be losing the C pedal on my new guitar. What will be on the third pedal? I'll be raising the B's to C#.

(no kidding)

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 15 May 2004 10:15 am

Buddy,

Repeating a change is not like you. Must work well with the fourth pedal

Paul

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 15 May 2004 10:37 am

Tommy Morrell once told me: "If you have something one way, then you'll loose the possibilities of the Other way and VISA VERSA" and "You can't have it Both ways; so choose one way that works best for your brain and go for it and don't look back"...
I believe these words are very smart as why I change my copedent around every Two WEeks..ha..
Ricky

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 15 May 2004 10:49 am

Paul,
Right now it's there to regain the whole tone raise of the bottom B string I'll be omitting on the A pedal. It's an experiment so I don't know what it will lead to if anything. It keeps me off the streets though.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 15 May 2004 10:50 am

Maybe Buddy's changing over to the Day setup!