steve takacs wrote:I feel Klines are the similar to Emmons and sound equally as good to me as and they are all-pull. While one's idea of what "sounds good" may vary, one thing does not:
What Dave O'brien said about the Emmons push-pull also applies to Klines:
They are very stabile I hardly ever needed to get the wrench out in the run of a three week show. Klines hold their tuning, no ifs ands or buts. stevet
Very true Steve and there is a reason for that. Even Klines and ZB's are all pull guitars, they still depend on a solid stop being the end plate as does a push pull being the body. It makes no difference about what you pull the stop with. You could pull it with a rubber band and as long as they are pulled to the solid stop it will be in tune. Not true with and all pull guitar. The pedal stop is their stop and if the rods temperature changes, it will change the tuning as the rods expand and contract. Still a very stable system but not as much as pushpulls, Klines and any guitar that has a solid stop to body or end plate. If I'm wrong, someone correct me.
Henry Matthews
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
Agree with you totally Henry. You hit it on the head.
The only down side I see with klines and the PP for that fact is that multiple changes on the same string usually mean some adjustment means must be added to the pull train on the undercarriage rather than at the end plate. (I also may be wrong about that so correct me if I am)
You may also want to look into the Promat guitar. It's the only push-pull being manufactured new. Their mechanism has subtle differences to the changer that are fantastic. You can also get parts for them. The craftsman goes the extra mile on these guitars (including using 40 year old wood on his cabinets). Mine stays in tune forever and has tone for days. I don't fuss with my copedant, however, if you do I'd go for any of the wonderful modern all pull guitars being made today.
Lone Star makes a push-pull, and Mike Cass is making new Push-pull Emmonses.
If my wife hadn't had a change in her income, I'd have had a Push-pull universal coming up soon.
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Henry and Jim, excellent points made and things I did not really think about much. Thanks.
Dave. I found this old post by Geoff Cline, and if he is correct and you can find the serial number on your Kline, you should be able to figure out whether it is the first Kline made
Posted 15 Oct 2009 6:09 pm
The big brown truck just dropped off (yes, in the dark) my Kline SD-10....
My guitar is serial number 4046...making it the 92nd guitar from Joe's shop.
Somewhere on The Forum, I read that Joe Kline's first steel had a serial number that was the same as his street address when he lived in Ohio. If true, perhaps that is why the Kline serial numbers are so high. I doubt Joe Kline made at least 4046 Klines during his run. stevet
Lane Gray wrote:Lone Star makes a push-pull, and Mike Cass is making new Push-pull Emmonses.
If my wife hadn't had a change in her income, I'd have had a Push-pull universal coming up soon.
Jim Pitman wrote:Agree with you totally Henry. You hit it on the head.
The only down side I see with klines and the PP for that fact is that multiple changes on the same string usually mean some adjustment means must be added to the pull train on the undercarriage rather than at the end plate. (I also may be wrong about that so correct me if I am)
You are correct Jim. Multiple pulls on a string can be on a push pull but you have to compromise some where. Just like pulling the 4th E string with C pedal and a knee lever. Then the stop on the knee lever actually becomes your in tune stop and is adjusted with a little knurled screw in the pull train. The C pedal pulls it all the way to body contact where as the knee that pulls half tone doesn't. Not that familiar with Klines but may be other ways of doing it on a Kline. It may be possible to utilize an extra hole on a push pull changer for another pull as long as you don't put too much slack and have the other fall out, and as long as your extra pull is less than the longest pull. It may work but never tried it. Push pulls are limited as to what they can do but I don't use splits that much anyway. I just raise my 6th a half tone and come off my pedal if I want to use it. The play ability and tone are well worth it to me.
Henry Matthews
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.
Lane Gray wrote:Lone Star makes a push-pull, and Mike Cass is making new Push-pull Emmonses.
If my wife hadn't had a change in her income, I'd have had a Push-pull universal coming up soon.
Is Lonestar in business?
I guess you're right, Dustin. I missed any mention of their falling away, but they appear to have disappeared.
I guess it is down to Mike Cass or Promat.
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
if mike is going to be putting together new push pulls, we could be entering a new era of some really great guitars!
i'd like to hear what he has to say about this.
Chris Harvey wrote:You may also want to look into the Promat guitar. It's the only push-pull being manufactured new. Their mechanism has subtle differences to the changer that are fantastic. You can also get parts for them. The craftsman goes the extra mile on these guitars (including using 40 year old wood on his cabinets). Mine stays in tune forever and has tone for days. I don't fuss with my coped ant, however, if you do I'd go for any of the wonderful modern all pull guitars being made today.
I should have never sold that guitar enjoy it my friend
I have no trouble keeping my Emmons in tune. I would highly recommend one, preferably an older restored one by one of the experts here.
Red Emmons D10 fatback #2246D with sweet Hugh Briley split cases, Black Emmons S10 #1466S, '73 Fender "Snakeskin" Twin Reverb, Peavey Nashville 400, Line 6 Pod XT, Fender 400, Fender Stringmaster Double-8, too many guitars, one bass!
My P/P has been simply outstanding. Over the last 5 years it's been run, and run hard from NY to TX. Mike Cass did a restoration for me a number of years ago and he's fantastic to work with and a great mentor. He re-adjusted it for me a while back, and she's back to work. I suggest that if you buy a P/P, spend a few extra bucks and make sure its adjusted properly and the underbelly gets a good going over. The rest is just learning something different in regards to tuning. I've found the guys who have had a bad experience with a P/P started out with a guitar that was lacking in adjustments or needing mechanical attention. And for what it's worth, they're just plain fun to own and play. Welcome to the club.
I have been playing p/p guitars since 1968. I would recommend split cases . It really make the job of carrying them much easier. I know there are at least a couple of folks making split cases.
Unless you know the guitar and trust the word of the seller, I would plan on having one of the good p/p mechanics take a look and plan on spending some bucks to get it right from the start,
It never cease to amaze me how some folks can really screw up any guitar by a lack of understanding how they work.Mike Cass does great work as does Tommy Cass, Albert Johnson and Lynn Stafford just to name a few.
Ive owned all pulls and one P/P Emmons....Like all the guys are posting when they are adjusted properly they play wonderfully and stay in tune... I purchased the only P/P from a dealer in OKC that played like a tank so I sent it to Bobbe Seymoure when his store was about 2 years old and when it arrived it played like a dream unfourtunately I lost it(1969 model)and a 72 ShoBud when my dads house burned down... I wish I had the old girl back but shes in steel Heaven
S12 MSA Classic Nashville 400 with fox mods amp 1 volume pedal 1 Lil Izzy and 3 cords
Just my 2 cents, but I feel that any compromises you have to make regarding tuneable splits, raise predominance, etc...are more than worth it to play a well-adjusted p/p.
There's just something special there.
Skip Edwards wrote:Just my 2 cents, but I feel that any compromises you have to make regarding tuneable splits, raise predominance, etc...are more than worth it to play a well-adjusted p/p.
There's just something special there.
I've read this thread a few times and am wondering if someone can actually describe what they mean when they say a P/P has a distinctive tone.
Better sustain? Brighter? Darker?
I know tone is subjective and the only real way to understand is to play one myself, but as someone who runs a recording studio, I'm keen to get a better notion of what all the p/p fuss is about.
Thanks!
Mullen Discovery S10, Hilton VP, Kemper Profiler Head and Kabinet.
enjoy it my friend
