Considering a P/P Emmons - Need advice

John Booth · Post by **John Booth** » 20 Feb 2015 8:23 am

I love the sound of the Emmons P/P guitar, however, I understand there may be a steep learning curve to
keeping it adjusted and tuned.

I'll bet some of you Emmons guys can tell me what I'm in for if I go for an older P/P.

All dozen or so of mine so-far have been all-pull guitars

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 20 Feb 2015 9:18 am

John, there is nothing like a push pull. I've got two I play all time and once set up proper, they are trouble free. If you are a pretty good hands on type guy then you shouldn't have any problem. They are not reccomended for the type that can't fix their commode if you know what I mean.
Either one of my guitars play as good as any all pull with easy and precise feel to pedals. I always set mine up myself as do most of the p/p players. First one I got was an Emmons setup and I play Day so I tackled it myself knowing nothing about how they worked. Four hours later, it was playing to my setup with just a little tweaking for the next couple days. I learned thru the years proper ways to do things on one with help of some of forum guys.
The web site of John Lacy I believe tells a lot on how they set up and tune called the wilderness guide for an Emmons I think.
I might add that it is not only the tone I like but how they feel and play but they are not for everybody. The guys I play music around here with playing all pulls spend more time tuning than they do playing seems like, lol. Maybe just me but I very seldom ever touch mine other than an initial touch up at the gig when I get there.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 20 Feb 2015 9:22 am

The p/p's are not for the steeler who is continually putzing with their copedent. But once you get a p/p setup and adjusted it is good to go for a looooong, looooong time.

Dave O'Brien · Post by **Dave O'Brien** » 20 Feb 2015 9:31 am

are very stabile I hardly ever needed to get the wrench out in the run of a three week show.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 20 Feb 2015 10:53 am

you probably don't need a p/p if you have to ask. you should be fine with your dozen all-pull guitars.

Chris Grigsby · Post by **Chris Grigsby** » 21 Feb 2015 9:18 pm

chris ivey wrote:you probably don't need a p/p if you have to ask. you should be fine with your dozen all-pull guitars.

Do you ever actually contribute anything constructive to a discussion thread, or do you honestly waste your time browsing an internet forum just to insult people? It's really tiresome.

Best,
Chris

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 21 Feb 2015 9:38 pm

well golly, chris.. i guess you'd have to read all of my posts since i've been here and decide for yourself.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 21 Feb 2015 9:53 pm

welcome to the forum!

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 21 Feb 2015 10:36 pm

I play a push-pull. It is my go-to gigging steel.

All-pull machines are easy to work on. Push-pulls not so much. It's like Erv said, if you're often changing your set-up or copedant than you MIGHT want to think more carefully about a change to this kind of Emmons. Importantly, a well adjusted push-pull can be smooth indeed and their tone is pretty nice, too. Dang things stay in tune better than ANY other machine I've ever played. Played 'em a long time. Own a few.

I like Chris Ivey's contributions. Really. Always will. I dont always agree with him, such as his opinion here, but he's spot-on in a lot of his posts and calls things for what they are. In my opinion, the Forum is a better place because he's a member. Erv, too.

Ken Campbell · Post by **Ken Campbell** » 22 Feb 2015 12:25 am

Chris Grigsby wrote:
chris ivey wrote:you probably don't need a p/p if you have to ask. you should be fine with your dozen all-pull guitars.
Do you ever actually contribute anything constructive to a discussion thread, or do you honestly waste your time browsing an internet forum just to insult people? It's really tiresome.

Best,
Chris

Do you?

J R Rose · Post by **J R Rose** » 22 Feb 2015 10:50 am

Here,Here Gentleman. Remember bOb is setting their with his trusty Delete Button. J.R.

John Booth · Post by **John Booth** » 22 Feb 2015 11:05 am

really guys, all I did was ask a question in the correct forum. Not tryin to cause $hit

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 22 Feb 2015 11:17 am

Not to pile on here, but chris usually says what most others just think. I think characters like that serve to keep a place like this interesting. I don't always agree with him, but admit that I usually read whatever chris writes...can't say the same is true for some other authors. We need to keep things interesting, cause a lot of these topics are hashed over and over...so I say, live and let live

Good luck with your choice, John.

John Booth · Post by **John Booth** » 22 Feb 2015 11:28 am

Much appreciated Rick.
I like to learn as much as I can on here and I know many
topics have been beat to death, but using the search feature
doesn't always return clear information if the terminology
isn't exact. So, without that prior knowledge of the vernacular
one has few options except to ask, which I do, and it sometimes
annoys those who already know, or don't have an interest
in my subject inquiry.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 22 Feb 2015 12:09 pm

The P/P is an a fairly simple and very stable system, if you take the time to learn how it operates. Set-ups can be tricky, because sometimes one needs to remove parts to get at things. On the other hand, it can be fully tuned by hand-operating the changer and adjusting the pull-train to accommodate the changer, once tuned. There are a few cardinal P/P principles that should be understood by the tinkerer.

Check out the "The Wilderness Guide", which is a sticky on the forum guide. Also Clem Schmitt sells a video P/P maintenance guide called "Methodology..." Both are great sources

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 22 Feb 2015 12:43 pm

Worst case situation you jump on here or Skype and let others guide you along. I did a Skype thing once with a friend and it worked out great.

Have someone with knowledge set the guitar up for you, then all you have to do is tweak it now and then.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 22 Feb 2015 4:42 pm

On the contrary - PP are very tuning stable. Can't beat the tone.
The question I'd be asking myself is can I live with the weight, raise dominance, and the stiff pedal action?

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 22 Feb 2015 4:59 pm

Push Pulls can't do tunable splits. That's important to some people (including me.) It's not important to others.

You might not care about this, but you should be aware of it.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 22 Feb 2015 5:18 pm

If you get an S10 with 3x4, you should be able to manage that.
Much less daunting.
You can always get a D10 later.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 22 Feb 2015 6:13 pm

Jim Pitman wrote:- ...... I'd be asking myself is can I live with the weight, raise dominance, and the stiff pedal action?

WEIGHT - They are "middleweights". Sure, they are heavier than most modern guitars (Mullen, Zum etc.), but lighter than many older ones (ShoBud, ZB).

RAISE DOMINANCE - No argument there. Split tuning guitars are more versatile but one can usually compensate on PPs by paying off-position.

STIFF PEDAL ACTION - A properly setup PP using appropriate changer leverage choices with balanced changes on each pedal or lever, will play as easily as most modern guitars. I've set up a bunch of Emmons' and got them all to play comparably to newer axes.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 22 Feb 2015 6:28 pm

i think every steeler, at some point, has to get the PP bug out of their system or it will eat at you, thinking you are missing something everyone else knows.
i really enjoyed my '66 PP, but when i got my LLII, that was all i really needed, so i sold it. i'm as happy with the LL than anything i've ever owned.

one of the reasons i sold the PP was that it was about 1" too short for me and the knee levers were set up for someone with thick legs - i guess a 5'8" 240lb guy would fit under it perfectly. i am 6'1" 185 and i had to cram myself under it and move my knee 4" just to engauge the knees. when i had my LL set up, i just have to bump them now. so most of the decision was ergonomic.

luckily i live near, and am good friends with one of the best PP guys in the country, Billy Knowles - so if i ever go that route again, i'll get one of his.

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 22 Feb 2015 10:01 pm

Chris I's posts are fine. He is not a trained chimp. He points out the devil's advocate arguments as well as the perspectives that skip the repeated rote.

Glad he adds his thoughts to the forum. Is it because he expresses in so few words that his posts meet disagreement?

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 22 Feb 2015 11:31 pm

Recently I've spent some time playing a fairly new all pull guitar. But I keep returning to the push-pull for the tone, particularly above the 12th fret, and the push-pull pedals and levers have a more positive feel, that I like. There's rarely a question with the push-pull as to whether a given pedal or lever is fully engaged or not. The all pull feels mushy by comparison, slightly lighter but mushy.

John Booth · Post by **John Booth** » 23 Feb 2015 4:29 am

So it seems to be a 50/50 in preference of / or determent of the PP
I learned a lot from you guys on this subject and think I have the tools necessary to make a decision. As usual you guys rock.
JB

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 23 Feb 2015 6:08 am

I feel Klines are the similar to Emmons and sound equally as good to me as and they are all-pull. While one's idea of what "sounds good" may vary, one thing does not:

What Dave O'brien said about the Emmons push-pull also applies to Klines:

They are very stabile I hardly ever needed to get the wrench out in the run of a three week show. Klines hold their tuning, no ifs ands or buts.

As for Chris Lucke'r statement regarding Chris Ivey, I could not agree more:
Chris I's posts are fine. He is not a trained chimp. He points out the devil's advocate arguments as well as the perspectives that skip the repeated rote.
Glad he adds his thoughts to the forum. Is it because he expresses in so few words that his posts meet disagreement?[/b]
stevet

The Steel Guitar Forum

Considering a P/P Emmons - Need advice

Considering a P/P Emmons - Need advice

push/pulls

Kline steels also stable