Lower Return Compensators

Sez Adamson · Post by **Sez Adamson** » 30 Jan 2015 12:42 am

I have recently changed my C6th copedant (Emmons Legrand 11) by incorporating the Pedal 4 change into RKL. So RKL now moves strings 4 & 8 from A to Bb, through a half stop, and on up to B. I tried this before but did not feel comfortable with it. But now thanks to some good advice from Jim Palenscar, I have got it nicely set up and it is here to stay.

This releases my Pedals 4 and 6b for other changes. While I am figuring out what new changes I should employ (lots of trial and error, I guess), I thought I might consider a further upgrade. Namely installing lower return compensators.

Have any of you Emmons Legrand (or other makes) owners done this. What was your experience? Who made up the parts for you? As I live in South Africa, it is not an option to send the instrument overseas to have somebody do the installation. But I could easily fit an assembly myself, but would not want to install a home grown assembly that would look amateurish. Itâ€™s a great instrument, in fairly good nick, and whatever I install should be in keeping with the standard of the rest of the parts underneath the body.

I will be interested to hear any comments about your experience with this. I also have a Williams S10 E9th with lower return compensators. A simple system with a rod fixed at one end under the instrument and going through the lowering scissor, and it works really well. The nylon nut is turned in just enough to remove the raising effect of string hysteresis.

Many thanks,
Sez

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 30 Jan 2015 3:06 am

My 1981 Franklin D-10 came with drop return compensators, of the type that your Williams has. Paul Franklin Sr claims to have invented that. Comments from Paul Jr about having that on his guitars sort of confirms that.

The drop return compensators was what I was looking for on a guitar and sealed the deal. I was tired of the problem on the PP Emmons I had.

Roy Peterman · Post by **Roy Peterman** » 30 Jan 2015 5:37 am

Sez, I installed return compensators on my Legrande. It was fairly easy, and works great. I got the parts from Billy Knowles who is an Emmons expert and owns Steel Guitar East in North Carolina. He (you probably know already) is a long time member of the Steel Guitar Forum, and is a wealth of information on Emmons steel guitars.

Willie Sims · Post by **Willie Sims** » 30 Jan 2015 2:23 pm

There was a discussion a while back a bout using tiny O-rings on the lowering changer fingers between the nylon tuning nut, and the changer fingers. I remember someone saying Ron Lashly thought of the idea. Everyone said that it will compensate for lowering problems. I put the O-rings on my Emmons Legrand, and it solved the problem.

Maybe you can find the discussion on the forum search, it will show you everything you need to know. Willie SIMS.

Sez Adamson · Post by **Sez Adamson** » 3 Feb 2015 12:19 pm

Thanks Jack, Roy & Willie for your responses. I'll get in touch with Billy Knowles, and get the process started.
Sez

Sez Adamson · Post by **Sez Adamson** » 24 Sep 2017 8:45 am

Just a follow up on this post.
I got in touch with Billy Knowles, who supplied me with the parts for the lower return compensators.
I am very pleased with the result. They do exactly what I wanted.
Thanks to all for your advice, and thanks to Billy Knowles for supplying the parts.
Sez

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 24 Sep 2017 9:34 am

Sez -- is Billy Knowles's approach basically the o-ring method?

robert kramer · Post by **robert kramer** » 24 Sep 2017 10:52 am

Standard Billy Knowles customer service: it's all about what the steel player needs to play his steel.

Mr. Adamson - if it's the guitar in your great videos - it's a keeper.

Sez Adamson · Post by **Sez Adamson** » 25 Sep 2017 1:24 pm

Jon,
Billy Knowles supplied me with a crossbar which is fixed, and a number of bell cranks with short 'pull train' rods with nylon tuners and 'rubber O rings'.
I installed them with the 'O' rings.
But I also have a Williams with similar concept lower return compensators. In this case there are no 'O' rings. These compensators also work perfectly on the Williams.
My gut feel is that the 'O' rings are superfluous and that the Compensators will work perfectly well on the Emmons without the 'O' rings. But I have not confirmed that in practice.
I did try just the 'O' rings only on the lowering scissors some time ago, but they did not have any beneficial effect. I still experienced 'string hysteresis', with the lowers returning slightly sharp.
My Williams is keyless, but it still experiences the same 'string hysteresis'. The compensators take care of this.
In my opinion, the compensators are not essential. The Emmons plays pretty well in tune without them. But they did make a difference, and I am glad I installed them.

Robert,
Yes, this is the same Emmons I use on the Youtube videos. It's a good instrument, and I have spent a lot of time over the years 'fine tuning' it till I am really comfortable with it. Little things I have done over the years include "George L" hum buckers, Getting the pedal heights correct, adjusting the pulls with the bell cranks, lower return compensators, lowering the height by 1 inch so the C6th vertical lever can comfortably be used in conjunction with pedals and the other left knee levers etc. Some of the chords I use require a number of different pedals/knee levers at the same time. One chord uses four pedals and two knee levers. It all felt awkward at first, but over time, and with adjustments and lots of practice, I now wonder why I ever thought it difficult.
I also have a Fessenden, currently in the USA. I plan to move it to Ireland. I am originally from Ireland, and hope to get the chance to play there more in the future. It's also a good sounding instrument. I have not had the chance to spend much time with it doing fine adjustments, but the time I have spent with it tells me it will be as good as the Emmons once I have done the little tweaks.

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 25 Sep 2017 9:43 pm

Very interesting thread. I seem to only have this problem with my Franklin pedal and have been curious about this subject for a long time. For some reason I just can't understand how this form of compensator works. Can anyone explain it to me? You can PM me if you wish. Thank you. Ron

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 25 Sep 2017 9:57 pm

I call them "rubber bumpers". Correctly adjusted they let the changer ease-in on neutral while the string settles in pitch after lower.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 26 Sep 2017 2:47 am

Thanks Sez.

Georg -- do you use the whole rig with the o-ring on a pull rod hooked up to a fixed anchor (bellcrank/cross shaft or any sort of bracket) or do you just use an o-ring at the nylon nut without an anchor? I see testimonials that that won't work. I'd love to hear someone say it does (so that I don't have to find space for the hardware in the jungle that is my undercarriage).

For anyone wanting elaboration, there have been some long threads with good descriptions of the method. A search for "o-ring" brings up a number of discussions.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 26 Sep 2017 4:54 am

My Franklin has the rubber O rings. On the C6th I had to put 2 O rings on the 10th string compensator for it to work properly.

Mr Franklin (Sr) expressly told me the rubber O rings are needed. Considering it was his design (as he claims) I would go with what he says. Having the drop return compensators was what sold me on the Franklin. It was the only one on the market, at the time, that had them.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 26 Sep 2017 6:48 am

Jon, the o-ring must be on a pull rod hooked up to a fixed anchor, adjustable via a nylon nut so the returning lower-scissor "bumps" against and "sinks" into the o-ring just before the scissor lands at the stop-plate. This "soft landing back to neutral" as the o-ring gets compressed, is what makes this form for compensator work.

Having an o-ring at the nylon-nut on the regular pull-rod is backwards, as it means the o-ring gets compressed during the lowering action. In such a set-up the o-ring gets released before the scissor lands at the stop-plate, and therefore it can not compensate for the return to neutral pitch deviation. The only effect an o-ring can have in such a backwards set-up is to make the lower-action slightly "spungy and unprecise", which we definitely do not want.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 26 Sep 2017 7:12 am

Spongy is exactly what I pictured (in the o-ring only scenario). Said to myself "maybe spongy is ok in this context" but didn't believe it.
Thanks for the clarity.

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 28 Sep 2017 11:22 am

So Georg, It's the hard hit against the stop block, on an uncompensated guitar, that makes the guitar return sharp? ( I still haven't researched the threads)

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 28 Sep 2017 12:00 pm

Ron, the hard stop - metal hammering into metal - doesn't cause much of the problem, although it may add a little instability in some changers. The "rubber bumper" created by the o-ring helps on that too.

It is rather that when a string has been lowered it has also changed inner tension, so when it gets released back up to neutral it takes a moment for it to settle back to the higher tension. For that short moment it will pitch too high and sound out of tune with the other strings.
The o-ring compresses slowly and delays the last few hair-widths of the lower-scissor's travel back to the stop-plate, giving the string time to settle in tension and pitch by the time the scissor lands on the stop-plate.

As Jack Stoner mentioned, some strings may need a longer slow-down and compression distance. Adding extra o-rings provide that little extra.

Note that old o-rings don't release and compress well, so they have to be replaced now and then.

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 28 Sep 2017 5:12 pm

Thx Georg. Makes sense. I usually just bang on the A pedal to bring 10 back in tune. Where can someone get some proper o rings to expediate the process of finding the ones that work?

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 29 Sep 2017 2:25 am

I got replacements for my Franklin at the local Ace Hardware. I replaced the one on the E9th neck when I disassembled and cleaned the changer.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 29 Sep 2017 10:45 am

Back when I was playing an Emmons Push/Pull, I noticed that when the E's were lowered and then released, the resulting E was always a tad sharp. I got in the habit of bumping the lever that raised the E's to bring the note back in tune.

My next guitar was a Mullen, pre-Royal Precision.
I never had that problem with the Mullen.

My next guitar was a Williams Keyless S-10.
No problem. (Perhaps because it is keyless.)

My next guitar was a BMI S-10.
I don't have the problem with that guitar, either.

Are these compensators needed on certain brands of guitars, or does it depend on each individual guitar?

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 29 Sep 2017 1:16 pm

Lee Baucum wrote:Are these compensators needed on certain brands of guitars, or does it depend on each individual guitar?

There can be more than one cause behind "high-pitch problems on return from lower".

- Hysteresis caused by friction, most often in the keyhead rollers, but also in the changer.
- Instability in the changer.
- String pitch settling.

In my opinion: both brand/model, and of course maintenance, play a big role. On some PSGs the "flaws" seem to cancel each other out in practice - no need for "compensators", while on others all "flaws" pull in the same direction - one or another form for compensator needed.
("Flaws" in this context are "minor variations in mechanical design".)

Some brands/models are definitely better built than others. The Infinity comes to mind, as I studied the changer model Frank Carter brought to the TSGA show years ago. Strange how all angles matter, isn't it?

Tim Heidner · Post by **Tim Heidner** » 29 Sep 2017 4:21 pm

I had this problem on my Williams on the 6th string lower. I found that I could get the string back to pitch either by bumping the B pedal or pushing the string behind the nut.
I decided that was all too much trouble and just did away with the 6th lower.
I sure would like to see some pics of the way you guys fixed this problem.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 1 Oct 2017 12:52 am

Tim Heidner wrote:I had this problem on my Williams on the 6th string lower. I found that I could get the string back to pitch either by bumping the B pedal or pushing the string behind the nut.

If the string stays out of pitch for more than a second, then it has nothing to do with settling of string tension.

Look for wear and excessive friction in changer and keyhead rollers, and also look for over-tensioned raise-helper and lower-return springs, as a string that doesn't settle all by itself when returning from lower is the result of the mechanism not returning to balance.
Lower return compensators can help some on that too, as those o-rings transfer vibration to the scissors at the point of return. It is a crutch for problems that should be solved in better ways though.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 2 Oct 2017 8:47 am

Georg SÃ¸rtun wrote:
Lee Baucum wrote:Are these compensators needed on certain brands of guitars, or does it depend on each individual guitar?
There can be more than one cause behind "high-pitch problems on return from lower".

- Hysteresis caused by friction, most often in the keyhead rollers, but also in the changer.
- Instability in the changer.
- String pitch settling.

In my opinion: both brand/model, and of course maintenance, play a big role. On some PSGs the "flaws" seem to cancel each other out in practice - no need for "compensators", while on others all "flaws" pull in the same direction - one or another form for compensator needed.
("Flaws" in this context are "minor variations in mechanical design".)

Some brands/models are definitely better built than others. The Infinity comes to mind, as I studied the changer model Frank Carter brought to the TSGA show years ago. Strange how all angles matter, isn't it?

Thanks, Georg

Alan Bidmade · Post by **Alan Bidmade** » 2 Oct 2017 10:37 am

I've always thought the monochrome fretboards are more classy than the coloured ones - Williams, Zum, Sho-Bud all look great to me.