Push Pull tuning issues

[Marcus Provis]

Hi folks,

Over the last few months I have been experiencing some tuning issues with my E9 Emmons Black Rock with the Emmons setup. I have looked "under the hood" for something that might stand out that could be causing the problem, as I have to constantly adjust the tuning at the endplate with the allen key.

I have next to no knowledge with regards to the mechanics of these things, and still fairly new to steel (5 and a half years) so thought I would upload some pictures of the underside to see if somebody may recognize something which didn't look right. The usual suspect compression springs looked to be ok, although I have replaced a couple of them a couple of months ago.

There are a couple of main strings which go out, string 6 being the worst. It does not always stay out of tune, but suddenly loses pitch, and can almost come back in tune but not quite. If I depress the B pedal raise it sounds out, which I tune, and then the open string will be out. I tune that also, and it might last a song, and then needs another tweak.

String 5 and 10 go out on the open and raised position; string 5 more often of the two.

String 4 is also causing some problems, the main one being that the lower on the (E )left knee lever doesn't quite lower enough and it appears to reach it's stop point, but when looking down at the changer end, the finger hasn't reached the stop point, and can be manually coaxed further by hand, but won't do this otherwise.

Sorry for such a long story! And the blurry photos! I have been able to get by with these issues for a while now, and changed strings a couple of times, but the problems are still there! It can put me off my practice with the pitch changes and things going on. Any and all advice and help with this is much appreciated.

I thought I should add a picture of the changer and also, the tuning keys.

Many thanks,
Marcus

[Lane Gray]

First: have you read this sticky thread? The first post describes the procedure.
You tune the RAISES at the keyhead, and the open note with the hidden screw.
Second: are you saying that, in the case of the 6th string, the G# note goes out on you (and the B pedal probably stays in tune, even though the G# moved) ?
I don't see the red coating on the screws that tune the open note: it's possible that the screw moves since the red stuff is supposed to make the threads sticky. It's not Loctite, it's more like plumber's pipe dope.

[Marcus Provis]

Hi Lane,

Thank you for your reply.
I don't know how I had missed reading the sticky thread this time round. I have read it in the past, but have had another look at it just now and found it to be most useful. I had been tuning the raises at the keyhead end and the open note with the hidden screw at the changer as you suggested.

I can confirm that on the 6th string, that I notice it go out of tune first when I depress the B pedal while playing. Then I will tune it at the keyhead while raising the B pedal and sometimes the open note will sound OK, but at other times it will be off pitch, and I will have to use the allen key to correct the open G# note.

Thank you for bringing me to the attention of the red coating which should be on the screws. I had a look now, and there appears to be none of the coating on the screw for string 6, and some of the other screws are completely missing this also. Some only have a minimal light blue coating on them.

Could that explain why the notes won't hold tune? I definitely spend at lot of time trying to get the open notes to stay on pitch.

Thank you for your advice!

Marcus

[Lane Gray]

If you search the forum, Jack Strayhorn has said the name of the goop.
You could order replacement screws with the stuff on them, or you could go to a plumbing supply house and get the smallest container of "thread sealant compound" which plumbers call "pipe dope." Unlike Loctite, it never hardens.
What's happening is that the load of the string tension holds the screw against those loose threads, and when you hit the pedal, it is free to wallow a bit, and it's likely to move a bit when you release the pedal.
The dope sits in the threads holding it still.

[Sandy Inglis]

Hi Marcus
Have you contacted Paddy Long? He's a whizz on Pedal steel setups here in Christchurch. email me (via forum) to get his number.
Like you, I've only been playing for about 6 years so am a bit of a newbie!!
Sandy

[Marcus Provis]

Thanks Lane,

I appreciate that. For some reason I had never paid much attention to the stuff on the screws before, although I do remember wondering why some had and others didn't, of course I never linked it to my tuning issues. I'll have a look on here to see what the stuff is called. It's great to know that you can also get the replacement screws with the goop already on them, which could be handy. I might look into getting some of the plumber's dope from a plumbing supply. Yes the strings never quite stay in perfect tune whether raised or open, so sounds like it's what is causing the trouble!

Thank you!
Kind regards

Marcus

[Marcus Provis]

Hi Sandy,

I haven't contacted Paddy about my most recent issues, but I have spoken to him before about it sometimes not behaving in the tuning department, I should have got in touch with him this time round too, he has always been a great help, and is a great teacher! (I have been taking lessons with Paddy every so often, and he has taught me a lot!)

Kind regards
Marcus

[Craig A Davidson]

When did you change strings last? I always had a rule when I had mine that if you had to keep messing with the endplate it was time to change strings. Mine was one of the most dependable guitars to hold tuning I ever owned.

[Jerry Jones]

Your 4th string E - F# has a compression spring that should not be there, but there should still be a small gap left between that crank swivel and the collar to allow for E - D# lower. The way you have it, the spring on string 4 is preventing a full lower with LKR.

[Jim Palenscar]

Actually there are numerous versions of Loctite and some of them don't harden. I use 545 for applications such as the Emmons tuning screws and it is available from numerous sources.

[George Duncan Sypert]

I would take off the compression spring on the 'A' pedal for the 5th string raise. Put a longer spring on the the sixth string raise. Not have one on the 3rd string raise and as another poster said take the spring off of the 4th string for the 'C' pedal. Pretty sure you can't get enough travel for the lower with that spring on there. Just a suggestion. I am not a push pull mechanic although I work on my one from time to time.

Good luck.

George

[Tony Glassman]

The best thing to do is get an solid understanding of the p/p mechanism. Read and view these 2 resources before attempting the repair-work. They are invaluble.




http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

http://www.steelguitar.com/index.html
(page 2 diagram)

[Lane Gray]

Actually there are numerous versions of Loctite and some of them don't harden. I use 545 for applications such as the Emmons tuning screws and it is available from numerous sources.

How would that compare function-wise to pipe dope? Since I'm a recovering landlord, pipe dope is what I had on hand and seemed a good fit for purpose. I didn't know about the 545.

[Tony Glassman]

Actually there are numerous versions of Loctite and some of them don't harden. I use 545 for applications such as the Emmons tuning screws and it is available from numerous sources.

Thx for the suggestion re: Loctite 545. You're right (as usual) .

I've used the 545 before and unlike reg Lockrite, as it does not require the anerobic environment which causes "thread locking". In reality, I usually wind up ordering a few Nylok screws from Ron Lashley Jr, just cause I'm a little OCD about OEM parts.

I also suggested he read a couple of p/p sources so that he can be a bit more methodical in his adjustment approach.

[Jerry Jones]

From the images, it looks like you are lowering your 6th string on RKL so I would guess that's another source of your "lack of slack" tuning issue. The links provided by Tony are great for an understanding of the push/pull mechanism.

[Marcus Provis]

Hi guys

Thanks for all the helpful advice and tips. I will now spend some time doing the research, and have a close look at the website links that Tony supplied. Then I'll work on the above mentioned issues. I thank each one of you for your help, it is much appreciated. I will update with how I get on.

Marcus

[Stephen Gambrell]

Actually there are numerous versions of Loctite and some of them don't harden. I use 545 for applications such as the Emmons tuning screws and it is available from numerous sources.

How would that compare function-wise to pipe dope? Since I'm a recovering landlord, pipe dope is what I had on hand and seemed a good fit for purpose. I didn't know about the 545.

I'm not Jim, but 545 is used (commercially) as a sealant/locking compound. And one of its selling points, is that it can be easily removed. Never a landlord, but a semi-dimwit with nearly 40 years in industrial maintenance.

[Eric Philippsen]

Just my 2-cent-opinion. I do own Emmons but make absolutely no claim to being a push-pull guru. Nevertheless, along the way I've picked up a smattering of knowledge about their underside workings.

That being said, you mention that you've replaced some of the springs. From what I can see, it appears that some of the springs are not of the correct type or density, with two appearing to be thinner. Additionally, in replacing those springs, you might not have adjusted the action correctly. Just guessing, but you might have simply snugged and tightened all the collars up against the new, thinner springs. There does not appear to be any slack and that can cause more than a few problems.

I did that to my very first p/p decades ago. I looked at its underside and said, "Why, look at that! All these loose springs. They need to be tightened up! And why don't I replace some of these old springs while I'm at it? I've got some springs somewhere to do that!" And that's what I did. The result was a D10 that wouldn't stay in tune and played hard. Geez, what a mess. It wasn't until, literally, two decades later that I found someone who could undo the "adjustments" I made.

[Jack Hanson]

This book and DVD set from Clem Schmitz may be the best $20.00 you ever will spend on your push-pull:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pedal-Steel-Gui ... 4154facf14

[Larry Behm]

String 6 looks to me to not be returning back to the body. Maybe that changer return spring needs to have more tension applied to it to pull it snug.

Look at the knee lever that drops 6, when you activate it by hand is there any play between the swivel and the collar, there should be a little, if not it might not be allowing the finger to return.

[George Duncan Sypert]

You definetly need the correct compression springs. Should be available from Emmons Co., Jerry Roller, Mike Cass, Billy Cooper or someone like that. Send some emails to try and locate some.

[Marcus Provis]

Thank you folks,

I certainly have a lot to learn about my instrument!
In regards to my compression springs, you are right. I went down to a local DIY store and bought some that I thought looked about right, turns out they were quite different than the originals, and actually break sometimes, and I have replaced them a few times now. I will have a look around and see if I can contact someone who has some original ones in stock. In regards to the pipe dope or loctite, is it best applied while still assembled on the steel, or would it be advised that I should remove the screws one at a time and apply it. I had been thinking that I could purchase some of the "pre-gooed" screws at some stage.

Here is some of the things I have done so far:
I Removed the 4th string compression spring and adjusted
the distance of collar accordingly.

Found that 4th string lower still would not travel the full distance, it would reach a stop
but could be coaxed further by adding more pressure to the lever, which brought it to almost the correct pitch.

This would however cause string 8's Lower rod to flex considerably.
It turned out that I had the adjustments wrong from when the spring was still
in place on string 4, so some further tweaking was needed. It appears to have had (previous
to my ownership) a very small part of spring in the place of the one I had put there.

Going by the Instructions I Tuned the C pedal with keyhead, tuned
the lower with the top endplate screw, tuned the raise for the f lever
with the hex nut underneath; and finally the open note with the bottom
hidden screw.

I will have to have a look at that return spring for string 6, and check the knee lever for the lowering, to see whether it is reaching it's correct travel. But of course I will also need to do a bit more reading up about the mechanics side of the push pull beforehand. This is shaping up to be a great learning experience! There is definitely more to them than learning to play them. It is all worth it though! So at this stage a work in progress.

All the best, and thanks to all

Marcus

[richard burton]

Where there are two raises on a cross-shaft, eg the 'A' pedal cross-shaft with one pull-rod going to the 5th string, and the other rod going to the 10th string, I use an underbody tuner on one of the rods to make it easy to initially set the guitar up so that both the 5th and 10th fingers 'bottom out' on the body at exactly the same time.
In other words, I'm not using it as originally intended, to tune an interim note, but, instead, using it as a fine-adjuster to get the fingers bottoming out at the same time.

This has allowed me to get rid of those pesky springs, making the pedal/lever action a whole lot better.

In the photo, if you can ignore all the clutter, you will see my home-made fine adjusters