Adding Banjo To Your Pedal Steel Playing?

Bill Moran · Post by **Bill Moran** » 27 Nov 2014 3:27 pm

b0b wrote:I really do like banjos. They are beautiful instruments. I just can't stand the way they sound. Sorry, guys.

Me Too

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 27 Nov 2014 3:51 pm

It's not just a case of playing steel and banjo. I think there is a deeper issue here.

Maybe it isn't enough to be a steel-player these days. Perhaps we ought to think of ourselves as "utility players".

By that I mean someone who can fill in on a couple of instruments, maybe more. Not necessarily scarily hot on any of them, but able to play backup in several genres with taste and enough ability to make a positive contribution to the music and assist the singer to make the connection between the song and the audience. After all, that's what we do when we play pedal-steel, right?

A great many of us began on 6-string, and continue to play it today. Now, I have never noticed a shortage of guitar-players at a jam, they seem to ooze out of the walls. What I have noticed is a shortage of guitar-players who play with taste and restraint, but that's a different matter best left to another time and another thread. So, if the song needs tasteful 6-string guitar, played with restraint, maybe you can contribute there.

Many steel-players also play Dobro, mostly tuned GBDGBD, the traditional bluegrass tuning. If the song doesn't need steel, it may well benefit from some Dobro backup...the sound is so distinctive. I've done this at several jams and people have come up to me and commented on how good - and how different - it sounds. That is a compliment for the instrument itself, not necessarily for me.

G-tuned Dobro pretty much leads you into the 5-string bluegrass-style banjo. The tuning is almost identical, so your Dobro knowledge is immediately useful. The thumb and fingerpicks are the same for both instruments. The concept of rolls for Dobro translates easily to banjo-rolls.

For its size, the 5-string bluegrass-banjo is a heavy and complex instrument, with a multitude of metal parts all of which must be correctly assembled and adjusted for the best tone. Conceptually, this parallels the pedal-steel. Banjo-strings are lighter than guitar-strings, resulting in less wear and tear on fretting fingertips. Most important of all, banjo-players who can play good backup (in whatever genre) with taste and restraint are rare...become one and you may find yourself in demand!

Another thing to keep in mind; next to pedal-steel players, banjo-players are the second most tone-obssessed musicians in the known universe! Steelers argue about the push-pull Emmons tone versus the vintage Sho-Bud tone versus the modern tones of Zums, JCHs and Franklins etc. Banjo-players argue about pre-war Gibsons versus the modern Stellings, Yates, Hatfields and Hubers and so on. You'll find yourself in good company, and you'll also find banjo-players actually like pedal-steel.

It is very limiting to confine ourselves to just one instrument. Pedal-steel is powerfully addictive and labyrinthinely complicated. Sometimes it does us good to step away and play an instrument which is utterly different in structure, tone and sound, yet provides us with a way of musical expression which can make an enormous difference to music with relatively little actually being played. Different instrument, yes, but the role is basically the same.

There are several precedents for banjo-players also playing steel, and vice-versa. Bill Keith and Winnie Winston, who co-authored the seminal book on pedal-steel guitar back in the 70s, both were excellent banjo-players. Here in Australia our own Tomi Graso began playing banjo and went on to pedal-steel. Those more knowledgable than I will know of many, many others.

Now, a cautionary comment, if I may. Just like pedal-steels, banjoes are complex instruments, and potential buyers/players need to do a lot of research before rushing out and spending good money. These days the Internet allows anyone to collect a lot of information from forums etc and then they are far-better informed when it comes time to spend the hard-earned. Build-quality and a proper setup mean much more than fancy engraving and bling, especially when it comes to banjoes.

Adding a new instrument to your repertoire has a lot going for it. If it helps you achieve a musical balance in your life, gives you (and the audience) pleasure, and makes happy memories for you and other people, I'd say go for it!

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Nov 2014 4:21 pm

Bill Sinclair wrote:
Richard Sinkler wrote:We have dobro simulators. I wish they would come out with a banjo sim. There are many songs that have bajo in it that I would like to cover the parts. I have no interest in buying and learning the banjo.
Try using an EL84 output tube for a slide. It has just enough weight to make the note sound but not enough for any amount of sustain. Combine that with a rolling pic technique and it's fairly convincing. A 6V6 is too heavy. If you don't have an EL84, a 12ax7 will give you an idea of the sound but will only cover 3 strings. You might want to use a spent tube as I don't know what the string vibration does to the tube internals. I don't have pedal steel to try it on but it works great on my 6-string lap. Let me know what you think.

I don't have tubes. But, I've tried all the methods described during my 43 years, and nothing even close. The closest i have come is the plastic tube my glucose tablets come in. It's about the size of a regular bar, but there is no sustain like a real banjo has, albeit, not much sustain. I used to use it in "Save a Horse, Ride a Cowboy".

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 27 Nov 2014 4:53 pm

Some years ago during a gig opp phone call, I was asked to send along a sound/video bite of my banjo playing. They weren't particularly amused but I got the gig anyway. It seems in some country groups, they merely want a little 5 in the mix, not like bluegrass....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcFUQnf ... 77B3A41AFD

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 27 Nov 2014 5:10 pm

At the urging of the guitar player in the band, I started playing banjo this past February. I started on a six string Dean, but after one month I had a real made in China 5 string banjo, a Washburn B-14.

I found the banjo with a pickup works way better than a dobro with a pickup in a fairly loud electric band. I can actually get the banjo loud enough for me and everyone else to hear it.

There sure is a lot of banjo in modern country music. Frequently it works in musical situations where the PSG just doesn't sound right.

Having played PSG gives one a bit of an advantage in learning Scruggs style banjo. As a PSG player, you are already used to fingerpicking with picks. Plus I use the same picks for both, so instrument changes between songs are quicker. The picks go on at the start of the set, and they stay on until the sets over.

I like playing the banjo, even though it has cut into my practice time on the steel. At this point I only play simple parts, but it's a refreshing tonal change from PSG. The banjo sure gets a reaction from audiences. Now if I could only playing Foggy Mountain Breakdown!!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 27 Nov 2014 8:32 pm

For me, banjo came before pedal steel. It was damned useful background to come into pedal steel with, and I still love bluegrass and banjo.

To me, it's all about playing music, and I like and play lots of different types. Instruments are tools in the service of the music, and I find it useful (for me) to use the right tool for the job. Not everything in my world naturally calls for steel. I've spent at least some time woodshedding various types of guitars (electrics of various sorts, acoustics, slide), banjo, steels, bass, drums, piano. I just don't see how understanding at least the rudiments of lots of instruments can possibly be bad for me as a musician, which is always my own personal goal in music.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 28 Nov 2014 5:23 am

I restrung a banjo with nylon to record it.
It sounded better with steel, and without it.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 28 Nov 2014 7:38 am

I took up banjo about a year ago and was coming along pretty good with the rolls and such but I cut my finger and couldn't play for a while and I've never started back. I like good banjo playing and a banjo can really put drive in some faster tunes.

Karen Sarkisian · Post by **Karen Sarkisian** » 28 Nov 2014 8:30 am

I recently bought a banjo and started learning for a modern country band. Apparently steel guitar is not needed on every tune

Willie Sims · Post by **Willie Sims** » 28 Nov 2014 8:34 am

Just to add a little humor to this discussion, some of you may have heard the joke a bout perfect pitch. One musician asking other musician what perfect pitch was, the musician anseringthe question said perfect pitch, is when you pitch a accordion and a banjo in the dumpster. I actually wish I could play a banjo. Hope I don't offend anyone it's actually just a joke. Willie Sims.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 28 Nov 2014 9:17 am

Ned McIntosh wrote:It's not just a case of playing steel and banjo. I think there is a deeper issue here.

Maybe it isn't enough to be a steel-player these days. Perhaps we ought to think of ourselves as "utility players".

By that I mean someone who can fill in on a couple of instruments, maybe more. Not necessarily scarily hot on any of them, but able to play backup in several genres with taste and enough ability to make a positive contribution to the music and assist the singer to make the connection between the song and the audience. After all, that's what we do when we play pedal-steel, right?

A great many of us began on 6-string, and continue to play it today. Now, I have never noticed a shortage of guitar-players at a jam, they seem to ooze out of the walls. What I have noticed is a shortage of guitar-players who play with taste and restraint, but that's a different matter best left to another time and another thread. So, if the song needs tasteful 6-string guitar, played with restraint, maybe you can contribute there.

Many steel-players also play Dobro, mostly tuned GBDGBD, the traditional bluegrass tuning. If the song doesn't need steel, it may well benefit from some Dobro backup...the sound is so distinctive. I've done this at several jams and people have come up to me and commented on how good - and how different - it sounds. That is a compliment for the instrument itself, not necessarily for me.

G-tuned Dobro pretty much leads you into the 5-string bluegrass-style banjo. The tuning is almost identical, so your Dobro knowledge is immediately useful. The thumb and fingerpicks are the same for both instruments. The concept of rolls for Dobro translates easily to banjo-rolls.

For its size, the 5-string bluegrass-banjo is a heavy and complex instrument, with a multitude of metal parts all of which must be correctly assembled and adjusted for the best tone. Conceptually, this parallels the pedal-steel. Banjo-strings are lighter than guitar-strings, resulting in less wear and tear on fretting fingertips. Most important of all, banjo-players who can play good backup (in whatever genre) with taste and restraint are rare...become one and you may find yourself in demand!

Another thing to keep in mind; next to pedal-steel players, banjo-players are the second most tone-obssessed musicians in the known universe! Steelers argue about the push-pull Emmons tone versus the vintage Sho-Bud tone versus the modern tones of Zums, JCHs and Franklins etc. Banjo-players argue about pre-war Gibsons versus the modern Stellings, Yates, Hatfields and Hubers and so on. You'll find yourself in good company, and you'll also find banjo-players actually like pedal-steel.

It is very limiting to confine ourselves to just one instrument. Pedal-steel is powerfully addictive and labyrinthinely complicated. Sometimes it does us good to step away and play an instrument which is utterly different in structure, tone and sound, yet provides us with a way of musical expression which can make an enormous difference to music with relatively little actually being played. Different instrument, yes, but the role is basically the same.

There are several precedents for banjo-players also playing steel, and vice-versa. Bill Keith and Winnie Winston, who co-authored the seminal book on pedal-steel guitar back in the 70s, both were excellent banjo-players. Here in Australia our own Tomi Graso began playing banjo and went on to pedal-steel. Those more knowledgable than I will know of many, many others.

Now, a cautionary comment, if I may. Just like pedal-steels, banjoes are complex instruments, and potential buyers/players need to do a lot of research before rushing out and spending good money. These days the Internet allows anyone to collect a lot of information from forums etc and then they are far-better informed when it comes time to spend the hard-earned. Build-quality and a proper setup mean much more than fancy engraving and bling, especially when it comes to banjoes.

Adding a new instrument to your repertoire has a lot going for it. If it helps you achieve a musical balance in your life, gives you (and the audience) pleasure, and makes happy memories for you and other people, I'd say go for it!

Thanks,Ned

Very insightful and provocative post!

bob

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 28 Nov 2014 9:20 am

Karen Sarkisian wrote:I recently bought a banjo and started learning for a modern country band. Apparently steel guitar is not needed on every tune

Thanks, Karen.

My whole point of this discussion!

bob

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 28 Nov 2014 9:35 am

Well said Bob. Of course, I'm a little old (70) to be worrying about getting a job playing but a young guy that wants to be on the road with a star needs to be a utility player. Most road musicians now play two or three instruments and not many would hire a guy that just plays only steel guitar, some do but not many. Years ago was very different. Times have changed and music has changed so musicians also need to change. I think banjo would be a very good addition for a steel player. I also play fiddle and guitar but I think the banjo is going to be hard for me at my age but these young guys and gals can pick it up in a hurry.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 28 Nov 2014 11:04 am

What about these for us that already play 6 string guitar:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Dean-Backwo ... er-reviews

Dave Ristrim told me that a lot of what is on the radio modern country is actually played on these and that he, as a real banjo player, has to duplicate the imposter!

bob

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 28 Nov 2014 11:17 am

That will be fine to get the feel for playing banjo with your band, and you can return it within 30 days if you decide to go a different direction.

Karen Sarkisian · Post by **Karen Sarkisian** » 28 Nov 2014 1:20 pm

I find the banjitar quite annoying. whats the point of learning to play a new instrument if you are not really learning to play a new instrument ?? that being said im somewhat frustrated with trying to learn all these banjitar tunes on a real banjo....

Andrew Roblin · Post by **Andrew Roblin** » 28 Nov 2014 1:32 pm

"Banjitar" (also known as 6-string banjo or guitar-banjo) is no substitute for a 5-string bluegrass banjo. But Louis Armstrong used 6-string banjo to good effect on a bunch of his records in the 1920s.
6-string banjo sounds great played like a 4-string tenor banjo (19 frets, CGDA) or 4-string plectrum banjo (22 frets, CGBD).
I have a plectrum banjo on my knee right now, playing Louis Armstrong's "Sleepytime Down South."
For a bluegrass feel, 5-string is the one.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 28 Nov 2014 7:07 pm

Karen Sarkisian wrote:I find the banjitar quite annoying. whats the point of learning to play a new instrument if you are not really learning to play a new instrument ?? that being said im somewhat frustrated with trying to learn all these banjitar tunes on a real banjo....

The point is to get the sound on the bandstand that people are used to hearing with the shallowest learning curve!

bob

Tim Fleming · Post by **Tim Fleming** » 29 Nov 2014 10:44 am

I started playing with "modern" country bands a couple of years ago and used the b@nj0 on only a couple of songs (I was happy to include it in the mix).

Now almost 60% of the songs on the set list have b@nj0 hooks and I'm now playing more of it than steel.
I don't mind.
I also decided to put a mandolin in the mix as well and have become one of those "utility" guys. Aside from lugging so many instruments around (and tuning them all) I am having a blast.

I am personally very excited about the evolution of modern country as it embraces the roots instruments. It says something about it's fans and their open-mindedness as the rest of the pop music scene becomes more and more artificial. Modern country music fans don't apologize for their "backward" taste in music; they have instead made it theirs and own it proudly.

Rah, rah!

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 29 Nov 2014 11:05 am

Dave Mudgett wrote:...Instruments are tools in the service of the music, and I find it useful (for me) to use the right tool for the job...

Absolutely. I don't "play" instruments, I "use" them. I have dozens of different instruments around me, and if I think an arrangement needs an instrument that I don't have, I'll buy one and learn how to use it.
It's the music that comes first, not the instruments.

Antolina · Post by **Antolina** » 29 Nov 2014 11:15 am

Modern country music fans don't apologize for their "backward" taste in music; they have instead made it theirs and own it proudly.

Huh?

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 29 Nov 2014 11:17 am

Tim Fleming wrote:I started playing with "modern" country bands a couple of years ago and used the b@nj0 on only a couple of songs (I was happy to include it in the mix).

Now almost 60% of the songs on the set list have b@nj0 hooks and I'm now playing more of it than steel.
I don't mind.
I also decided to put a mandolin in the mix as well and have become one of those "utility" guys. Aside from lugging so many instruments around (and tuning them all) I am having a blast.

I am personally very excited about the evolution of modern country as it embraces the roots instruments. It says something about it's fans and their open-mindedness as the rest of the pop music scene becomes more and more artificial. Modern country music fans don't apologize for their "backward" taste in music; they have instead made it theirs and own it proudly.

Rah, rah!

Did you go with a "real" 5 string banjo or did you already play it? Good job on keeping up with the times

bob

Tim Fleming · Post by **Tim Fleming** » 29 Nov 2014 11:36 am

It's a proper 5-string with an EMG pickup installed.

Watching the new stars performing live shows, I've seen many using the 6-string banguitar, or whatever they call it. It still sounds cool enough.

T

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 29 Nov 2014 2:40 pm

I started out on tenor banjo. Then I heard Trent and Scruggs, and built a 5-string neck for my tenor, early-style Scruggs tuner levers too. I still play 5-string. Love the "drive!" I also play 6-string banjo for Ragtime and some Blues fingerpicking tunes. Great for Joplin. I was a utility player. Lead, Steel, Lapsteel, Banjo, and Mandolin. Had more work than I could possibly do!
I saw some new band's video, and the guitar player was trying to sound like a 5-string player, using a flatpick! I guffawed! I can play "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" and "Hard Times on 6-string banjo or guitar, but it's not easy getting the sound of the drone string right.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 29 Nov 2014 11:07 pm

I started with banjo in 1984, and loved every moment of it, my avorite players are Ralph Stanley and Jim McEuen from NGDB, and my all time favorite album is "Will the circle be unbroken" by NGDB, I played "Earl's breakdown" many times, and lat time I played it was with Vassar Clements and Bob Saxton at Long Hallow Jamboree in Hendersonville, definitely one of the most memorable times of my life. It was an experience of a life time to play "Earl's breakdown" with Vassar, I will never forget that. I love banjo, and will never stop playing it, gospel bluegrass like Stanley Brothers, would be my favorite kind of banjo music, not much into melodic or chromatic banjo, but I do like Allan Munde on his Stelling... as far as playing with the band, I used Deering Crossfire, and it woke great, banjo has a great tone, and can get as loud as you want it without a feedback problem... I don't pay much attention to banjo jokes, I heard people telling me steel guitar sounds like someone is pulling a cat by the tail, they never heard of Buddy of course, but I didn't pay much attention to those comment either... I also spent some time with Doug Dillard and Vic Jordan in Nashville, and Vic couldn't believe I can play "Pick away" which was his instrumental lol ... ah, good old days, once I got a green card and a day job, all the fun stopped...sometimes I wonder...

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Adding Banjo To Your Pedal Steel Playing?

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