C6 6th string E raise to F... anybody else like it

[Luke Sullivan]

I am about ready to set up my Mullen SD10 with C6 tuning, changing from E9. I have been playing a ShoBud D10, C6 with two knee levers.
Right Knee is 3rd string C, lower to B. For the left knee, I couldn’t get 5th string G to lower all the way to F (wound string), so I alternatively
raised string 6, E to F. Now I depend on that E raise and can’t live without it.
I have studied other players’ copedant charts, and see that very few choose this change. I can’t help but wonder why I’m in the minority. Either my limited experience; or maybe due to my desiring major chords and disapproving of major sevenths.
I’d appreciate any input, my new 5&5 RP set-up will be the ultimate guitar; with C-C#, A-Bb,
E-F, C-B (knees).
There will be a pedal X and another lever so I can try some of your creative offerings. The forum members’ sharings have been immensely helpful to me.

[Craig A Davidson]

I have that change which I refer to as pedal 6 reverse. I also lower string 2 on that change.

[Bob Hoffnar]

I have seen that change on Dave Easleys and Wayne Dahls C6.
They both said it was essential to how they play. It is the next change I will put on my C6 set up.

[Willie Sims]

If I am not mistaken I believe that John Hughey had this change on his guitar. It is very useful full chords, if you playing in the key of G and wanted to go to C chord, raise the six String with the knee lever, you will be in C if you lower the second string a halftone you will have a C7 . If you move-up two frets to the a position , you will be in D now while holding the knee lever in ,LET the knee lever OFF slowly while pushing the six pedal down you get a two half tone lowering sound ending in D7 if I am wrong somebody can correct me.

[Luke Sullivan]

That is some encouraging feedback. I thought maybe I was crazy, out here in the woods, for not just going with the masters' standards. Yes, full major chords are a relaxing part of the music after hearing a bunch of far-our altered inventions. Some of Bobbe Seymour's non-pedal and C6 pedal instruction videos are taught in the key of C, at 7th fret position. His "As Time Goes By" album is mostly in C, and I can play right along with some of it in that key and 7th fret position. Mashing the 6th pedal instead, at 7th fret position, adds to that levered C major, a (regular?)7th tone on string 6. Sounds good.

[Greg Cutshaw]

It makes the C6 tuning a lot more melodic and get's me away from playing the same old cliches a lot!

[Greg Cutshaw]

Here's a link to a short tutorial I wrote on this change:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab14.html


I have this on my E9th left knee vertical lever. My guitar is so compact that I can easily reach my left knee over to actuate it! So it doesn't consume one of my regular C6 lever slots.

[Lane Gray]

One of my friends has an "inverse P6", and another combined it with a raise of 10 to D.
I'd also add the 4 to Ab lever, and drop 8 to G with it.

[Richard Sinkler]

I used to have the inverse P6 on the pedal to the left of P5. While it was nice, I wanted that pedal for some changes on E9, and moved the bellcranks and rods to the E9 neck. I do, however, lower string 6 to F so I have an F in the middle between the low F and the one on the 2nd string. I never could understand why the "standard" C6 never had a way to get that F note, other than moving the bar.

[Luke Sullivan]

You guys are great. Now I'm all fired up. I haven't ever had the 4th A-Ab change. I wonder what it might reveal? I can almost imagine that the 8th string drop to G will move nicely. And, I'm now thinking about the idea of reverse P6 to the left of P5. When setting up, there are exciting choices. Better keep working on the hand action too.

[John Swain]

Luke, if you check old copedants Buddy Emmons, Doug Jernigan, John Hughey, Buck Reid and I all have that change on a KL or pedal!

[Craig A Davidson]

When I traded my Emmons to Jim Hollingsworth for his Mullen RP he had the change on it. I liked it so much that I had Bill put it on my Williams when he built it.

[Paddy Long]

I too lower the 2nd string E to Eb along with the raise on 6 E to F -- very handy changes !

[Richard Sinkler]

I would like to put the inverse P6 back on P5, but I have the changes on the E9 that I like better on P5. Adding 2 more changes to the pedal will probably make it too stiff for my E9 changes. I do have a LKV on C 6 that I could change. I would probably use the inverse P6 more.

[Sez Adamson]

Hello Luke.
I think the pedal/lever changes that players use on C6th depend very much on what style of music they want to play. So there are no rights or wrongs, with that in mind. Just personal preferences and choices.
When I started playing C6th about 12 years ago, I remember a circular from Bobbe Seymour talking about adding knee levers. There were two very important points that I paid very close attention to at the time.
1. Whatever change you are considering putting on, it should have maximum compatability with all the other existing pedals and knee levers.
2. The less strings you plan to change on the additional knee lever, the more likely you are to achieve this. A one string change therefore is likely to be ideal from this perspective.

With this in mind, I have E to F on string 6. I don't lower string 2, but there is nothing to stop you from installing that too, on the same knee lever. You can experiment by screwing in the nylon tuner in the end plate to activate the string 2 change, or screw out the nylon tuner to de-activate the change. I prefer the 'melody' note that is available from leaving the second string unchanged. And I get this note (Eb or D#) by raising the first string by a semitone on a different knee lever.

Another alternative you can consider: Instead of lowering string 4 from A to Ab, you can raise string 5 by a semitone from G to G# (or Ab). It's the same note, however I have found many uses for this change. If your Steel has split tuning capability, this adds even more functionality to the G to G# change on string 5.

A final point. C to C# (string 3) seems to be a popular change. I achieved this by changing the position of the rods in the bellcranks, so that when I press pedal 7, the third string moves first, taking the note from C to C#. As it arrives at C#, string 4 kicks in, providing a 'feel stop'. Then further pushing of Pedal 7 takes string 3 on up to D, and string 4 up to B. It's not one of my more used changes, but it enables me to get this change while keeping a knee lever available for other changes. This works for me, but as I don't know of anybody else doing it like this, I must assume that it's a crazy idea. So I would keep it well down on the priority list.

You will get many different opinions to this whole question. I would start by looking at the style of music you want to play on C6th. If you have a favourite player playing the style of music you would like to play, then his/her set-up would be a good place to start.

[Jack Dougherty]

Yup

[Brint Hannay]

you can raise string 5 by a semitone from G to G# (or Ab). It's the same note, however I have found many uses for this change.

I'm glad to see at least someone else has that thought. You don't seem to see that change in many copedents. I've never had it, but there have been many times while fooling around on C6th (that's all I do on C6th--fool around) when I've wanted to be able to do it.

But I'm wondering where the split tuning fits in. The standard C6th only has the G to F# lower on string 5, and splitting with a G# raise would bring it back to a G.

[Sez Adamson]

Hello Brint.
You are quite correct. The split brings the 5th string back to G if you use P5 to lower it first to Gb, and then use LKR to bring it back to G. But in the process you have now also raised string 10 by a tone (with P5). It's the combinations and compatibility of pedals/levers that is important. Try this:
Press P5 and pick strings (arpeggiated) 10+, 7, 6, 5b, then 5b# (LKR), 4
Then move up two frets and pick as a chord 9, 7, 6, 4.
What works for me is being able to hold the raised string 10, and then being able to play a little melody over it. Also, using splits on both strings 5 and 6 facilitates inner movement of notes within chords.
Is there any way of attaching mp3's to these posts? It would be very useful to be able to do so.
Note: I use the b# notation together to indicate a note has been flattened, and sharpened back up to it's original pitch, using a split.

[Gary Lee Gimble]

Is there any way of attaching mp3's to these posts?

Yes Sez, there is. Upload your mp3's to Soundcloud, see link below. Once your sound bite is completed, you'll have a URL associated with said audio track. Simply copy and paste....
Now get busy and upload....post haste

https://soundcloud.com

[Ian Rae]

Two thoughts:- 1. On a uni the equivalent of that E to F change is already there.

Longer thought 2. I think the F note does exist in the basic C6 setup. If you think of the C pedal on the E9, it started life in the days of pull-release as a means of lowering 6 to F#. Raising 4 & 5 was a means, not an end, and you needed to be able to move the bar in opposition to the pedal to keep the E & B steady while the G# fell to F#. Is this a lost art? In the same way P7 is originally a means of lowering G & E to F & D.

Or maybe I've got it wrong

[Brint Hannay]

I don't know if the C pedal started as a means of lowering 6; I've always assumed it was first conceived for the B+C minor chord, but this is all speculation.

But the "reverse" use of the C pedal certainly is useful. I, like many, lower the 6th string to F# on a lever, but the changers on my guitars can't lower 3 to F#, and the C pedal gives me that move.

[Sez Adamson]

Luke & Gary,
Here are some sound clips and tab that I did a while back to illustrate some uses for my non-standard knee levers. There is quite a lot on the 6th string E to F change that you were asking about. I have not tried loading up clips from Sound cloud before, so let me know if I got it wrong, and I'll try to fix it.

https://soundcloud.com/sez-adamson/knee-lever-ex-1-6



https://soundcloud.com/sez-adamson/knee-lever-ex-7-14

[Donny Hinson]

I've had it, in one form or another, since 1966, when Stu Basore turned me onto it!

[Earnest Bovine]

Sez, again you have found beautiful chord voicings on C6 where nobody else had found them before.
I put the notes in the computer so I can read them.



"Lyrics" are your fret numbers. Erratum: ex 4 (Someone To Watch Over Me) measure 3, 3rd beat on the E dim chord, fret should be 7, not 6

[Sez Adamson]

Earnest. I am highly impressed at your efforts in translating my tab into standard notation in rapid time. Thanks for this. It only helps to improve and clarify what I am trying to demonstrate. And thanks for fixing the error. I don't have a proof reader, and often when I go back to old tab, I find and fix errors.